Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
Chanh Dao
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by Chanh Dao »

santa100 wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:34 pm
Chanh Dao wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:33 pm No, that only applies when certain precepts of the vinaya are broken. Things like having sex, killing, stealing, etc.

I reccomend you refrain from defaming monastics in the future.

Peace and love.

:focus:
Unfortunately all that you've done and said so far on this thread are not what monastics do. Just by wearing monk clothes doesn't mean you're a monastic. You have to do A LOT more to earn that title.

Yes. To earn the title of being a monk in user Santa's opinion. I have a lot more to do.

In the eyes of the Dhammayut, the government of Thailand, and of my many peers some of which are Ajahns and high level scholars of the Pali Canon.

I am a monk.


Good luck to you.
Chanh Dao
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by Chanh Dao »

santa100 wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:40 pm
Chanh Dao wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:39 pm I am a monk.


Good luck to you.
You are? Well, good luck with that.

Yes you seem to be reading selectively I'll rephrase.

To the user Santa on the internet who I don't know and have never met I am not considered a monk.

In the eyes of the monastic lineage Dhammayut, the government of Thailand, and of my many peers some of which are Ajahns and high level scholars of the Pali Canon I am considered a monk.
Chanh Dao
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by Chanh Dao »

santa100 wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:44 pm
Chanh Dao wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:42 pm Yes you seem to be reading selectively I'll rephrase.

To the user Santa on the internet who I don't know and have never met I am not considered a monk.

In the eyes of the monastic lineage Dhammayut, the government of Thailand, and of my many peers some of which are Ajahns and high level scholars of the Pali Canon I am considered a monk.
You are? Well, good luck with that. I don't give a ratass if your friends are "Ajahns" or "Pali scholars" or whatnots, if they're handling money like you do, make fun of those who reprimand monks for breaking the precepts like you do, then it's all fair game to call them out and tell them the bitter truth that they're actively doing great harm to the Dhamma and to themselves. You are doing great harm to the Dhamma and to yourself.

I hope that you find peace.
Chanh Dao
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by Chanh Dao »

Not even a fart can be shared.
santa100
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by santa100 »

Chanh Dao wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:48 pm Not even a fart can be shared.
Wonderful words of wisdom from a wise monk!
Chanh Dao
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by Chanh Dao »

It's a quote from a Zen master. :sage:
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Chanh Dao
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by Chanh Dao »

santa100 wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:49 pm
Chanh Dao wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 5:48 pm Not even a fart can be shared.
Wonderful words of wisdom from a wise monk!

Here you go. Zen Master Kodo Sawaki.

I'll let him close us out.

You can’t even trade a single fart with the next guy. Each and every one of us has to live out his own life. Don’t waste time thinking about who’s most talented.

The eyes don’t say, “Sure we’re lower, but we see more.”
The eyebrows don’t reply, “Sure we don’t see anything, but we are higher up.”
Living out the buddha-dharma means fulfilling your function completely without knowing that you’re doing it. A mountain doesn’t know it’s tall. The sea doesn’t know it’s wide and deep. Each and every thing in the universe is active without knowing it.
The bird’s singing and the flower’s laughter appear naturally,
completely independent from the person sitting in zazen at the foot of the cliff.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by Sam Vara »

Moderator note: members are asked to refrain from personal abuse, and other things such as threats of kammic retribution, which contravene the ToS. Post in this thread have been removed, and any more in the same spirit will also be removed. Persisting in this can lead to the thread being locked, warnings, and suspensions.

Thanks. :anjali:
Chanh Dao
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by Chanh Dao »

To you I am a fake monk.

I am a part of a Monastic order. We do not look to santa100 for ordinations or for continued inspection of Monastic values in the community.

I'll restate. I am a monk in the Dhammayut Thai Forrest tradition in Thailand.

I was ordained by a venerable Ajahn and teacher that is well known throughout the world. I live in a Forrest monastary with other monks. I wear the sapphron robes of my order.


Santa100 I understand you keep missing this but I'll restate it one last time.

My Monastic order, which is the Dhammayut in Thailand. Does not look to you for deciding whether or not someone is a monk in the Dhammayut. This order goes back hundreds of years.


If you have your own Monastic order of monks I understand that I'm not apart of that. I may in fact not be qualified.

May not follow the vinaya to the level that your Monastic order requires.


However. I am not apart of your Monastic group.

I am a monk in the Dhammayut Thai Forrest tradition.

My teachers and peers do not look to you.
However they do know me and spend time with me frequently. To them and the other members of the Dhammayut as well as the government of Thailand I am accepted as, live as, and am practicing as a monk.


I apologise if this is confusing.


Once again.

I hope you find peace.

:focus:
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pilgrim
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by pilgrim »

I always felt the whole point of being a monk in the Buddha's sangha was to follow the precepts of the sangha. It is one thing to say that one finds the rules are too hard and lay the fault on oneself. It is another to say that the fault lies with the rules themselves which are no longer relevant to current times. Seems pointless to become a monk in these times if one has this attitude.
santa100
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by santa100 »

pilgrim wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:30 pm I always felt the whole point of being a monk in the Buddha's sangha was to follow the precepts of the sangha. It is one thing to say that one finds the rules are too hard and lay the fault on oneself. It is another to say that the fault lies with the rules themselves which are no longer relevant to current times. Seems pointless to become a monk in these times if one has this attitude.
+1. Well put.
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salayatananirodha
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by salayatananirodha »

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/mn/mn.117.than.html#s1 wrote:"And how is right view the forerunner? One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view. And what is wrong view? 'There is nothing given, nothing offered, nothing sacrificed. There is no fruit or result of good or bad actions. There is no this world, no next world, no mother, no father, no spontaneously reborn beings; no brahmans or contemplatives who, faring rightly & practicing rightly, proclaim this world & the next after having directly known & realized it for themselves.' This is wrong view...

"One tries to abandon wrong view & to enter into right view: This is one's right effort. One is mindful to abandon wrong view & to enter & remain in right view: This is one's right mindfulness. Thus these three qualities — right view, right effort, & right mindfulness — run & circle around right view."
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka/an/an10/an10.103.than.html wrote:"In a person of wrong view, wrong resolve comes into being. In a person of wrong resolve, wrong speech. In a person of wrong speech, wrong action. In a person of wrong action, wrong livelihood. In a person of wrong livelihood, wrong effort. In a person of wrong effort, wrong mindfulness. In a person of wrong mindfulness, wrong concentration. In a person of wrong concentration, wrong knowledge. In a person of wrong knowledge, wrong release.

"This is how from wrongness comes failure, not success."
I host a sutta discussion via Zoom Sundays at 11AM Chicago time — message me if you are interested
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by JamesTheGiant »

pilgrim wrote: Sun Dec 30, 2018 10:30 pm I always felt the whole point of being a monk in the Buddha's sangha was to follow the precepts of the sangha. It is one thing to say that one finds the rules are too hard and lay the fault on oneself. It is another to say that the fault lies with the rules themselves which are no longer relevant to current times. Seems pointless to become a monk in these times if one has this attitude.
Yes you are right, this is true, but at the same time it's not really up to us to criticise the motivations of anyone who goes to be a monk.

They are a valid bhikkhu, no matter their views, whatever their motivations.
The only thing that makes them not a monk is a parajika, or simply disrobing themselves.

We should not criticise the new Venerable too much. He's alone, in a foreign country, and probably having a hard time getting used to simply dressing in the robes properly, let alone following all the vinaya rules yet.
He can confess at patimokka every fortnight, and start again the next morning with the intention to do better.
It's a long road, being the perfect bhikkhu, and it won't happen overnight.
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Volo
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by Volo »

JamesTheGiant wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 6:20 am He can confess at patimokka every fortnight, and start again the next morning with the intention to do better.
It's a long road, being the perfect bhikkhu, and it won't happen overnight.
Confession alone in not enough. Using gold and silver (which in Vinaya defined as money: "Silver means: the kahāpaṇa, the masaka of copper, the māsaka of wood, the māsaka of lac, used in business.") is nissaggiya paccittiya, which means one should discard money, as well as everything which was bought using them, in front of the sangha, then one can confess.

In some traditions like Tibetan or Mahayana it isn't possible to live without money, but in Theravada its still possible. Why not to try? Especially if one still is a new monk. For an old monk who used money his whole life it would be difficult to change, therefore it's better to be firm from the beginning. One has to stay in the right monastery, many things would be more difficult, but it is possible, and one lives in accordance with the Buddha's words.
SN 42.10 wrote:If gold and silver are allowable for anyone, the five cords of sensual pleasure are allowable for him. If the five cords of sensual pleasure are allowable for anyone, you can definitely consider him to be one who does not have the character of an ascetic or of a follower of the Sakyan son.

“Further, headman, I say this: ‘Straw may be sought by one needing straw; timber may be sought by one needing timber; a cart may be sought by one needing a cart; a workman may be sought by one needing a workman.’ But I do not say that there is any method by which gold and silver may be consented to or sought.”
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Monastics Handling Money [Was: Dhammayut Ordination Options]

Post by JamesTheGiant »

Volo wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 8:21 am Confession alone in not enough. Using gold and silver (which in Vinaya defined as money: "Silver means: the kahāpaṇa, the masaka of copper, the māsaka of wood, the māsaka of lac, used in business.") is nissaggiya paccittiya, which means one should discard money, as well as everything which was bought using them, in front of the sangha, then one can confess.
Ah yes, thank you for reminding me about the Nissaggiya Paccittiya. Yes it's not enough to just confess, the money and stuff purchased has to be relinquished.
Also, the confession cannot be made to a monk who has also handled money. It has to be made to a monk who hasn't committed that offense also.
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