Dhammayut Ordination Options

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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pilgrim
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by pilgrim »

Dali348 wrote: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:16 am Personally I'd stay away from monasteries that don't strictly adhere to the Vinaya. Does that pretty much leave it at the Ajahn Chah monasteries these days? I'd like to believe that there are still some strict Dhammayut monasteries!
Two reputable Dhammayut teachers with western disciples are Luang Por Daeng Varapanno of Wat Phra Chow Dtone Luang ( Wat Phra Jao Ton Luang) in Chiangmai and Ajahn Suchart Abhijato in Chonburi. I believe they are both strict on Vinaya but can't comment to what extent. Another Dhammayut teacher, Ajarn Sudhiro of Wat Pa Kanjanabhisek in Khon Kaen is also known to English speakers. There are branch temples in UK and NZ but I know little else of him.

More on Ajahn Abhijato. https://www.facebook.com/AjahnSuchartAbhijato/
Last edited by pilgrim on Sun Dec 30, 2018 12:10 am, edited 3 times in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by mikenz66 »

Welcome Dali348,

You have a lot of good suggestions here. I gather that the advice about good visa support is very important. I suggest carefully reading through Ven Dhammanando's posts:
memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=56
He has mostly lived in Thailand since the 80s, was initially ordained as Dhammayut (which included a period as Maha Bua's assistant), and after a short return to lay life has been Maha Nikaya ordained for over a decade. He lives somewhat independently in the Cheng Mai area. I spent a week with him a couple of years ago at the monastery he happened to be in at the time: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2730&start=60

I mention this to emphasise that his posts on various monastic and doctrinal issues are based on immersion in various Thai sects, not from looking from the outside.

Currently he's waiting for a new power supply for his computer, but you could phone him (if you search "dhammanando" on facebook you'll find his phone number, or PM me if that's not an option.

:heart:
Mike
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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by JamesTheGiant »

SarathW wrote: Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:21 pm What will happen if someone does a bad chant for you?
Ooh I don't know. Is there a bad chant? I thought all chants from bhikkhus were good merit chants.
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mikenz66
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by mikenz66 »

pilgrim wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:25 pm
SarathW wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 11:07 pm
Dhammayut considers Nibbana as another type of consciousness. This is more in line with Mahayana rather than Theravada.
That's just ridiculous. Dhammayut is a monastic lineage not a doctrinal sect. One may as well say Mahanikai believes in sakyant tatoos.
Yes, it's an orchards and apple trees comparison. There are the Dhammayut and Maha Nikaya ordinations, and within each there are numerous monasteries, in both city https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wat_Bowonniwet_Vihara and countryside. Often when people refer to Dhammayut here they are thinking of the forest monastic movement of the early 20th C, not the whole Dhammayut order, which was established by King Mongkut in the mid 19th C. Hence the late King Bhumibol Adulyadej is interred at Wat Bowonniwet (see the above link).

The apple tree to apple tree comparison would be the Ajahn Chah group of monasteries vs. Ajahn Maha Bua (or one of the other Forest monastic) group of monasteries, etc...

Mike
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Dali348
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by Dali348 »

pilgrim wrote: Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:53 pm
Dali348 wrote: Sat Dec 29, 2018 9:16 am Personally I'd stay away from monasteries that don't strictly adhere to the Vinaya. Does that pretty much leave it at the Ajahn Chah monasteries these days? I'd like to believe that there are still some strict Dhammayut monasteries!
Two reputable Dhammayut teachers with western disciples are Luang Por Daeng Varapanno of Wat Phra Chow Dtone Luang ( Wat Phra Jao Ton Luang) in Chiangmai and Ajahn Suchart Abhijato in Chonburi. I believe they are both strict on Vinaya but can't comment to what extent. Another Dhammayut teacher, Ajarn Sudhiro of Wat Pa Kanjanabhisek in Khon Kaen is also known to English speakers. There are branch temples in UK and NZ but I know little else of him.

More on Ajahn Abhijato. https://www.facebook.com/AjahnSuchartAbhijato/
Awesome, thanks for the suggestions! I have met Ajahn Suchart and Ajahn Sudhiro, and got a good impression from both of them. I will look into the one in Chiang Mai. I see that it's in Mae Taeng. Ideally I am as far away from Bangkok and Chiang Mai as possible, but finding a good teacher and a conducive environment will probably take precedence over which region of the country.
3 - Triple Gem - TISARANA
4 - Noble Truths - ARIYA SACCA
8 - Noble Path - ARIYA MAGGA
*Middle Path - MAJJHIMA PATIPADA
Study, Practice, Realize - PARIYATTI, PATIPATTI, PATIVEDHA
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Dali348
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by Dali348 »

mikenz66 wrote: Sat Dec 29, 2018 11:56 pm Welcome Dali348,

You have a lot of good suggestions here. I gather that the advice about good visa support is very important. I suggest carefully reading through Ven Dhammanando's posts:
memberlist.php?mode=viewprofile&u=56
He has mostly lived in Thailand since the 80s, was initially ordained as Dhammayut (which included a period as Maha Bua's assistant), and after a short return to lay life has been Maha Nikaya ordained for over a decade. He lives somewhat independently in the Cheng Mai area. I spent a week with him a couple of years ago at the monastery he happened to be in at the time: viewtopic.php?f=12&t=2730&start=60

I mention this to emphasise that his posts on various monastic and doctrinal issues are based on immersion in various Thai sects, not from looking from the outside.

Currently he's waiting for a new power supply for his computer, but you could phone him (if you search "dhammanando" on facebook you'll find his phone number, or PM me if that's not an option.

:heart:
Mike
HI Mike,

Yes I saw many of his contributions to previous threads and found a lot of the information really helpful. Indeed I was hoping to hear him chime in on this thread too but I guess I'll wait to see once he is back online. If the thread doesn't catch his eye maybe I'll see if I can track him down. Thanks!
3 - Triple Gem - TISARANA
4 - Noble Truths - ARIYA SACCA
8 - Noble Path - ARIYA MAGGA
*Middle Path - MAJJHIMA PATIPADA
Study, Practice, Realize - PARIYATTI, PATIPATTI, PATIVEDHA
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by Ṭhānuttamo »

Dali348 wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:54 pm WAT BOWON - This seems like a common entry point for foreigners to ordain in the Dhammayut Nikaya. [...]

- little to none foreigners (I'm looking for a real cultural immersion)
- a good teacher who actively gives Dhamma talks and guides the community in their practice (in Thai is fine)
- quiet, not too close to a city or town and away from local pubs or nightclubs
- forested! I want to actually live in a real forest, not just in a concrete slab with a few trees here and there
- preferably not a big tourist attraction monastery, but if it's a really important place that people visit, that might be okay
- simple but clean and well-supported
- a place that has a traditional alms round (within walking distance, not a place that shuttles monks around in buses to neighboring villages)
- walking mediation paths
- a place where the monks are practicing hard and are there for the right reasons (at least the majority of them)
Dear Dali,
here some hints and background which you might find helpful.

I myself ordained in the Dhammayuttika Nikāya. To ordain in this tradition has some advantages over doing it in the AC-tradition. One major is that you find much easier access to AC-monasteries as a dhammayut monk than the other way around, mainly due to difference in vinaya lineage, if I remember correctly. You may not be able to join the pātimokkha for example.

Wat Bowon I would not recommend for ordination. Generally, it is not easy to find access, usually just through having been referred to it by an ajahn. They also handle money. Potentially relevant note: It would be a dukkata for you to stay under a teacher who is not pure in vinaya. Once accepted anyway, I doubt that it would be a problem to change places in favor of a related forest monastery.

I believe Wat Phu Sangho (near Udon) might fit very well from what I can gather from your writing. It meets all your criteria, except that there is some bus-shuttling involved, though not for the entire route. Great place, with huge forest and a respected ajahn, very supportive generally and zealous in re to practice. More details here: https://embracing-buddhism.jimdo.com/re ... /thailand/

Another one I could recommend is near Wat Marp Jun (I forgot the name), it is a Dhammyut monastery and if you ask for directions from people at WMJ they will know, it is only some kilometers away. Deep forest, usual pindapāta, no foreigners, when I was there. Abbot speaks only Thai. Not sure about the practice standards, but it seemed at least average. WMJ itself has some (one?) very rural, remote and ascetic branches, itself being a branch of Wat Nong Pah Pong (AC).

However you decide, I am quite confident that you will find a suitable place to stay. Even if you ordain somewhere where it is not so congenial, many monasteries have one or several branches different in style. Altogether there are so many places which meet your criteria, just look some more in case you don't find ssomething straightaway. Especially as a monk it is generally speaking very easy to travel, even without money. When you start walking, it is common that you don't walk more than 15 minutes before someone offers you a ride or help. You may also stand in front of ticket counters with your bowl (not open) and usually people quickly assist and offer you help, Thais are amazing helpers ...

As to the dependence from a teacher. The vinaya allows for times of travel and even comfortable abiding outside the vassa that you live exempted from nissaya, among other things. It is best to clarify, however, always your potential intentions for travelling with the teacher of your choice beforehand, since not all teachers know about or allow you these excemptions. (See PM)

All the best findings for Thailand!
Mettā
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by retrofuturist »

Greetings,
Dali348 wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:54 pm Hi everyone, this is my first post ...
I don't have much to add to the topic in question, other than to say welcome to Dhamma Wheel.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Dali348
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by Dali348 »

retrofuturist wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 12:06 am Greetings,
Dali348 wrote: Fri Dec 28, 2018 2:54 pm Hi everyone, this is my first post ...
I don't have much to add to the topic in question, other than to say welcome to Dhamma Wheel.

:buddha1:

Metta,
Paul. :)
Thanks Paul, it's good to be here!
3 - Triple Gem - TISARANA
4 - Noble Truths - ARIYA SACCA
8 - Noble Path - ARIYA MAGGA
*Middle Path - MAJJHIMA PATIPADA
Study, Practice, Realize - PARIYATTI, PATIPATTI, PATIVEDHA
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pilgrim
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by pilgrim »

Dali348 wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:57 am
Awesome, thanks for the suggestions! I have met Ajahn Suchart and Ajahn Sudhiro, and got a good impression from both of them. I will look into the one in Chiang Mai. I see that it's in Mae Taeng. Ideally I am as far away from Bangkok and Chiang Mai as possible, but finding a good teacher and a conducive environment will probably take precedence over which region of the country.
Two monks, Ajahn Mettiko and another monk now staying at Muttodaya Monastery in Germany have both trained with Luang Phor Thong Daeng Varapanno. You may want to contact them first if that helps.
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by SkillfulA »

pilgrim wrote: Thu Jan 03, 2019 11:36 pm
Dali348 wrote: Mon Dec 31, 2018 4:57 am
Awesome, thanks for the suggestions! I have met Ajahn Suchart and Ajahn Sudhiro, and got a good impression from both of them. I will look into the one in Chiang Mai. I see that it's in Mae Taeng. Ideally I am as far away from Bangkok and Chiang Mai as possible, but finding a good teacher and a conducive environment will probably take precedence over which region of the country.
Two monks, Ajahn Mettiko and another monk now staying at Muttodaya Monastery in Germany have both trained with Luang Phor Thong Daeng Varapanno. You may want to contact them first if that helps.
A. Mettiko trained with lp thong daeng many years but a. Cattamalo didn't stay more than a few days with lp thong daeng according to my knowledge and the website info. Before muttodaya a. Cattamalo used to train in a. Brahm's monastery for 13years. Before that 7years in wpn etc Thailand.
Yes good to inquire with a. Mettiko. You can reach him via email. Several westerners trained with lp thong daeng.
Last edited by SkillfulA on Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:29 am, edited 1 time in total.
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pilgrim
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by pilgrim »

SkillfulA wrote: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:46 am
A. mettiko stayed with lp thong daeng many years but it would be news to me if A. chattamalo did stay/trained more than a few days with lp thong daeng. Before muttodaya he used to stay/train in A. brahm's monastery for 10+years. Before that in wpn etc Thailand.
I was actually referring to Ven Chandako a Spanish majjhima monk who spent 2 years with Luang Por.
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by User1249x »

Chanh Dao wrote: Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:29 am As a foreigner I would expect you to pay money to go through ordination.
A few questions venerable sir;
How much is a Dhammayut Bhikkhu ordination worth nowadays?
Is the training included in the ordination price?
Can one buy a monastic status complete with independence of a teacher, how much is that?
Last edited by User1249x on Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:36 am, edited 1 time in total.
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SkillfulA
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by SkillfulA »

pilgrim wrote: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:15 am
SkillfulA wrote: Fri Jan 04, 2019 12:46 am
A. mettiko stayed with lp thong daeng many years but it would be news to me if A. chattamalo did stay/trained more than a few days with lp thong daeng. Before muttodaya he used to stay/train in A. brahm's monastery for 10+years. Before that in wpn etc Thailand.
I was actually referring to Ven Chandako a Spanish majjhima monk who spent 2 years with Luang Por.
Oh I see, you are right, forgive me my wrong assumption to whom you were referring, totally forgot about him.
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SkillfulA
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Re: Dhammayut Ordination Options

Post by SkillfulA »

User1249x wrote: Fri Jan 04, 2019 1:20 am
Chanh Dao wrote: Sat Dec 29, 2018 6:29 am As a foreigner I would expect you to pay money to go through ordination.
A few questions venerable sir;
What is the price of ordination nowadays?
Is samanera ordination cheaper than a full Bhikkhu ordination?
Is the training included in the ordination price?
Can one buy a monastic status complete with independence of a teacher, how much is that?
Seriously!??
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