Why are alms to monks so rewarding?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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lostitude
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Why are alms to monks so rewarding?

Post by lostitude »

Hello,

In another thread I came across this passage I did not know:
DooDoot wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 1:17 am Therefore, it could possibly be contrary to the Buddha-Dhamma to blame a world "economic slump" for one's personal economic hardships. I think modern sciences such as "evolution" and "economics" might possibly be contrary to Buddhism (like they are contrary to Christianity & Islam). I think MN 135 might possibly say it is due to past life kamma; as follows:
"There is the case where a woman or man is not a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, scents, ointments, beds, dwellings, or lighting to brahmans or contemplatives. Through having adopted & carried out such actions, on the break-up of the body, after death he/she reappears in the plane of deprivation... If instead he/she comes to the human state, he/she is poor wherever reborn. This is the way leading to poverty: not to be a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, scents, ointments, beds, dwellings, or lighting to brahmans or contemplatives.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
For example, in this video, we can observe the way leading to great wealth: to be a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, scents, ointments, beds, dwellings, & lighting to brahmans & contemplatives.
I am wondering on what grounds it is especially profitable to give to monks and contemplatives. Is there a logical reason to this?
I hope I'm not ruffling any feathers confessing that such a text sounds extremely suspicious to me as it clearly serves the interests of one specific group of people using bait and fear.

I hope DooDoot can contribute, as in another thread you precisely wrote that :
DooDoot wrote: Sun Nov 25, 2018 11:09 amYou are free to superstitiously believe (without evidence) the Noble Eightfold Path leads to Nibbana. If you have not actually realised Nibbana then, imo, to believe in the entire Sutta Pitaka is just superstition. I personally find it quite illogical to claim the Buddha taught a unique path to Nibbana when the reality of Nibbana is not even known. Its no different to claiming Jesus taught a unique path to "God". If "God" is not known and "Nibbana" is not known then, to me, both are equally superstitious. :heart:
Which suggests my suspicions are not too much out of line and won't be deemed offensive, at least not by DooDoot. I'm really just trying to make sense of this, because it's so reminiscent of the classic ploy used in many other religions to con the masses.

Thanks in advance.
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Nicolas
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Re: Why are alms to monks so rewarding?

Post by Nicolas »

Dhammapada wrote: 355. Riches ruin only the foolish, not those in quest of the Beyond. By craving for riches the witless man ruins himself as well as others.

356. Weeds are the bane of fields, lust is the bane of mankind. Therefore, what is offered to those free of lust yields abundant fruit.

357. Weeds are the bane of fields, hatred is the bane of mankind. Therefore, what is offered to those free of hatred yields abundant fruit.

358. Weeds are the bane of fields, delusion is the bane of mankind. Therefore, what is offered to those free of delusion yields abundant fruit.

359. Weeds are the bane of fields, desire is the bane of mankind. Therefore, what is offered to those free of desire yields abundant fruit.

More on the DhammaWheel topic: Who is worthy?
lostitude
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Re: Why are alms to monks so rewarding?

Post by lostitude »

Many thanks, Nicolas.
So the logic seems to be that if your offerings contribute to good deeds later performed by the recipient, the donor will have a share in those good deeds. And good deeds are more likely to be performed by a purified individual than by an ordinary person. Is it what should be understood from verses 355 to 359?

If so, that line of reasoning seems to hold water to me, however Zoom in the other thread you referred me to mentions MN150 which seems to focus on differentiating the good brahmins and recluses from the bad ones. Which seems to imply that simply being a recluse is no guarantee at all.
Another detail that strikes me in MN150 is this:
Householders, if the homeless ascetics of other beliefs ask you: Householders, what are the ways and behavior patterns, of those venerable ones, that you say: Indeed these venerable ones are free of greed, or fallen to train for it? Free of aversion or fallen to train for it and free of delusion, or fallen to train for it? You should reply them thus. Those venerable ones abide in forest dwellings and leaves huts, where such forms cognizable by eye consciousness could not be enjoyed. Such sounds cognizable ear-consciousness could not be enjoyed, such scents cognizable nose-consciousness could not be enjoyed, such tastes cognizable tongue-consciousness could not be enjoyed, such touches cognizable body-consciousness could not be enjoyed. Because of these ways and behavior patterns, we say that these venerable ones are free of greed, or fallen to train for it, free of aversion or fallen to train for it, free of delusion, or fallen to train for it.”
How do you reconcile this with MN135 which says that"This is the way leading to poverty: not to be a giver of food, drink, cloth, sandals, garlands, scents, ointments, beds, dwellings, or lighting to brahmans or contemplatives."?

This, plus the fact that not everyone necessarily has the opportunity to give anything to contemplatives/recluses, especially in the West, which renders the threat of poverty a bit dubious.

So what am I missing?

Thanks!
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Sam Vara
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Re: Why are alms to monks so rewarding?

Post by Sam Vara »

Here is another interesting aspect of this point. I live very near to a monastery in Ajahn Chah's lineage. We are in a very affluent area, and (as is often the case in the West) many of the lay supporters are wealthy professionals and business owners who can afford to give generously. The result is that the food-cupboards are usually full with good quality food, and even expensive building projects are held up more by local planning laws than by lack of funds. People sometimes ask me why it is more virtuous to give to these monks (who by the way maintain excellent sila in the face of such an embarrassment of riches) rather than to homeless people a few miles away.

I normally reply in terms of the symbolic value of gifts, and the benefits accruing to someone who can give their possessions away. But it's quite a difficult point to answer convincingly.
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DooDoot
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Re: Why are alms to monks so rewarding?

Post by DooDoot »

lostitude wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 4:29 pmI am wondering on what grounds it is especially profitable to give to monks and contemplatives. Is there a logical reason to this? I hope I'm not ruffling any feathers confessing that such a text sounds extremely suspicious to me as it clearly serves the interests of one specific group of people using bait and fear.
Indeed. The scripture this is from, namely, MN 135, I have previously posted my personally doubts about; how MN 135 supports the political status quo similar to the Hindu caste system (thus I expressed my doubts the Buddha actually spoke MN 135).

This said, giving donations to monks and contemplatives can certainly lead to "spiritual wealth". There are many suttas which speak of "spiritual" or "noble wealth" (rather than material wealth).
What’s a person’s best wealth?
What brings happiness when practiced well?
What’s the sweetest taste of all?
The one who they say has the best life: how do they live?

Faith here is a person’s best wealth.
The teaching brings happiness when practiced well.
Truth is the sweetest taste of all.
The one who they say has the best life lives by wisdom.

https://suttacentral.net/sn1.73/en/sujato
Bhikkhus, there are these five kinds of wealth. What five? The wealth of faith, the wealth of virtuous behavior, the wealth of learning, the wealth of generosity, and the wealth of wisdom.

(1) “And what, bhikkhus, is the wealth of faith? Here, a noble disciple is endowed with faith. He places faith in the enlightenment of the Tathāgata thus: ‘The Blessed One is an arahant, perfectly enlightened, accomplished in true knowledge and conduct, fortunate, knower of the world, unsurpassed trainer of persons to be tamed, teacher of devas and humans, the Enlightened One, the Blessed One.’ This is called the wealth of faith.

(2) “And what is the wealth of virtuous behavior? Here, a noble disciple abstains from the destruction of life, abstains from taking what is not given, abstains from sexual misconduct, abstains from false speech, abstains from liquor, wine, and intoxicants, the basis for heedlessness. This is called the wealth of virtuous behavior.

(3) “And what is the wealth of learning? Here, a noble disciple has learned much, remembers what he has learned, and accumulates what he has learned. Those teachings that are good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, with the right meaning and phrasing, which proclaim the perfectly complete and pure spiritual life—such teachings as these he has learned much of, retained in mind, recited verbally, mentally investigated, and penetrated well by view.

(4) “And what is the wealth of generosity? Here, a noble disciple dwells at home with a heart devoid of the stain of miserliness, freely generous, openhanded, delighting in relinquishment, devoted to charity, delighting in giving and sharing. This is called the wealth of generosity.

(5) “And what is the wealth of wisdom? Here, a noble disciple is wise; he possesses the wisdom that discerns arising and passing away, which is noble and penetrative and leads to the complete destruction of suffering. This is called the wealth of wisdom.

“These, bhikkhus, are the five kinds of wealth.”

When one has faith in the Tathāgata,
unshakable and well established,
and virtuous behavior that is good,
loved and praised by the noble ones;
when one has confidence in the Saṅgha
and one’s view has been straightened out,
they say that one is not poor,
that one’s life is not lived in vain.

Therefore an intelligent person,
remembering the Buddhas’ teaching,
should be intent on faith and virtuous behavior,
confidence and vision of the Dhamma.

https://suttacentral.net/an5.47/en/bodhi
The above said, i personally am not suggesting MN 135 is speaking in spiritual language because the Buddha did not speak to a Buddhist in MN 135 (the Buddha spoke to a Brahmin student) plus the Pali word for "wealth" appears to refer to "material wealth". At least for me, MN 135 is a sutta added at a later time by the clergy of monks. For me, it is simply too dangerously deterministic.

:smile:
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lostitude
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Re: Why are alms to monks so rewarding?

Post by lostitude »

DooDoot wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 8:03 pm At least for me, MN 135 is a sutta added at a later time by the clergy of monks.
Frankly speaking that's exaclty the thought tugging at the back of my mind. But I'm only basing myself on the little I know of buddhism (and on what I know all too well from some other religions) so I'd be happy to read more views on this.

Thanks.
santa100
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Re: Why are alms to monks so rewarding?

Post by santa100 »

lostitude wrote:I am wondering on what grounds it is especially profitable to give to monks and contemplatives. Is there a logical reason to this?
Giving to someone who's purified the 3 gateways of body, speech, and mind would obviously yield more "abundant fruits" than giving to one who has not. But then again, that depends on the big IF: of whether the receiver has truly purified the 3 gateways or not. It could very well be the case that the receiver conducts all kinds of unwholesome behavior behind the scene, in which case the donation to the sick, the weak, and the poor would yield way more "abundant fruits". Ultimately, it's important to notice the purpose of practicing Dana, or the virtue of charity. It is to let go of stinginess, of clinging, and of attachment. So while it's true that there're wholesome resultant merits, as long as one keeps in mind the true purpose of the practice, one won't fall into that common mistake of treating Dana as a transaction which leads to differentiating/calculating who/where/when to donate to maximize the "returns". With the right intent, whether offering to the monastics or donating to the poor or helping the sick, or whatever, every single act adds up and help one to be able to let go (as opposed to pick up more) all clinging and attachments. Anyway, if there're websites that keeps check on the authenticity/integrity of charity organizations like: https://www.charitynavigator.org/, there's no reason one should not use similar discretion when it comes to giving to monastics. It's obviously a bit more difficult for there's no website that provides rating on the specific monastic, but some careful attention/observation of their 3 gateways should give some idea about them before donating.
SarathW
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Re: Why are alms to monks so rewarding?

Post by SarathW »

It is important to read the following as well.
What is Sanctification of the Gift?
viewtopic.php?f=13&t=25889&p=372098&hilit=
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Volo
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Re: Why are alms to monks so rewarding?

Post by Volo »

If one gives to bhikkhus, then one has faith into the Buddha's teachings, which is a foremost teaching and leads to happiness both wordly and nibbanic, therefore the result is also higher then to give to ordinary people. Giving to the needy would also give wealth, but smaller, may be a giver won't be very reach but of average wealth or one has to give to many needy people. If one doesn't give at all, one would be poor, because he didn't create conditions to be reach.

Also MN 135 was taught to Todeyya, whose late father (according to the Commentary) had been extremely stingy, especially to recluses. Therefore may be "not giving" as a cause to be reborn in the lower realms refers to not give out of stinginess/hostility.
This, plus the fact that not everyone necessarily has the opportunity to give anything to contemplatives/recluses, especially in the West, which renders the threat of poverty a bit dubious.
Considering that in the west (and the east as well) there are very few those who keep even 5 percepts, I would assume most people would be reborn in the lower realms: animals, ghosts, hell. Not having money and property would be one of the least problems there.
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Re: Why are alms to monks so rewarding?

Post by AgarikaJ »

This is from the biography of Ajahn Chah, where it is described from the viewpoint of monastics, which benefits the alms-round should bring for the laypeople.
https://www.abhayagiri.org/books/617-stillness-flowing
p.261
The Vinaya forbids monks from begging for food from laypeople. Monks on alms-round walk silently and in single file, stopping only to allow those wishing to offer food to do so. A strong ritual element to the alms-round is present throughout. Generally, no greeting or conversation is involved. The monks avoid eye contact with the donors and do not say thank you; it is understood that they are providing an opportunity for the donors to make merit by practising generosity.
In the villages surrounding Wat Pah Pong, the majority of villagers, squatting down out of respect, would simply drop a small lump of sticky rice into each monk’s bowl. Some people might offer bananas, rice sweets or dried fish as well, but only the wealthiest families could afford to do so on a regular basis. A gift of a few lumps of sticky rice was something even the poorest family could afford.

It made the alms-round an occasion when every household in the village could tangibly contribute to the well-being of the Sangha and feel a sense of participation in the life of their religion. Alms-round also played a central role in fostering a warm relationship between the local villages and the monastery. Although they seldom spoke to each other, a sense of familiarity and warmth between monks and laypeople would develop over a period of months and even years.

That alms-round is not solely concerned with the gathering of alms is indicated by the old Thai monastic idiom referring to it: ‘prot sat’, or ‘saving sentient beings’. Seeing the monks’ restrained and dignified demeanour first thing in the morning is intended to uplift the minds of the donors and remind them of the moral and spiritual values they revere.
...
p.263
Alms-round performs another important function for the Sangha. It constitutes the monks’ most tangible practice of Right Livelihood – the fifth of the factors of the Eightfold Path. By going on alms-round, monks procure the requisites they need to maintain their health and strength in a way appropriate to samaṇas: not making demands from laypeople or seeking to coerce them in any way.
The teaching is a lake with shores of ethics, unclouded, praised by the fine to the good.
There the knowledgeable go to bathe, and cross to the far shore without getting wet.
[SN 7.21]
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Sam Vara
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Re: Why are alms to monks so rewarding?

Post by Sam Vara »

AgarikaJ wrote: Tue Nov 27, 2018 2:23 pm This is from the biography of Ajahn Chah, where it is described from the viewpoint of monastics, which benefits the alms-round should bring for the laypeople.
https://www.abhayagiri.org/books/617-stillness-flowing
p.261
The Vinaya forbids monks from begging for food from laypeople. Monks on alms-round walk silently and in single file, stopping only to allow those wishing to offer food to do so. A strong ritual element to the alms-round is present throughout. Generally, no greeting or conversation is involved. The monks avoid eye contact with the donors and do not say thank you; it is understood that they are providing an opportunity for the donors to make merit by practising generosity.
In the villages surrounding Wat Pah Pong, the majority of villagers, squatting down out of respect, would simply drop a small lump of sticky rice into each monk’s bowl. Some people might offer bananas, rice sweets or dried fish as well, but only the wealthiest families could afford to do so on a regular basis. A gift of a few lumps of sticky rice was something even the poorest family could afford.

It made the alms-round an occasion when every household in the village could tangibly contribute to the well-being of the Sangha and feel a sense of participation in the life of their religion. Alms-round also played a central role in fostering a warm relationship between the local villages and the monastery. Although they seldom spoke to each other, a sense of familiarity and warmth between monks and laypeople would develop over a period of months and even years.

That alms-round is not solely concerned with the gathering of alms is indicated by the old Thai monastic idiom referring to it: ‘prot sat’, or ‘saving sentient beings’. Seeing the monks’ restrained and dignified demeanour first thing in the morning is intended to uplift the minds of the donors and remind them of the moral and spiritual values they revere.
...
p.263
Alms-round performs another important function for the Sangha. It constitutes the monks’ most tangible practice of Right Livelihood – the fifth of the factors of the Eightfold Path. By going on alms-round, monks procure the requisites they need to maintain their health and strength in a way appropriate to samaṇas: not making demands from laypeople or seeking to coerce them in any way.
:goodpost: Beautiful quotes - thank you!
lostitude
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Re: Why are alms to monks so rewarding?

Post by lostitude »

Thank you everyone.
By going on alms-round, monks procure the requisites they need to maintain their health and strength in a way appropriate to samaṇas: not making demands from laypeople or seeking to coerce them in any way.
This sounds a lot better than "if you don't give food and scents etc. to contemplatives you will be poor in your next life", which is the quote I had trouble with.
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DooDoot
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Re: Why are alms to monks so rewarding?

Post by DooDoot »

Sam Vara wrote: Mon Nov 26, 2018 7:14 pmI normally reply in terms of the symbolic value of gifts, and the benefits accruing to someone who can give their possessions away. But it's quite a difficult point to answer convincingly.
I agree this answer is not convincing; which is probably why it is difficult to articulate. My impression of religion as a whole, including Buddhism, is the wealthy prefer to give to monks, priests & holymen because the giver believes a 'transfer' of merit is occurring, i.e., the gift makes the giver righteous. If a person or their family has obtained wealth in immoral ways, its natural to not reflect upon this immorality but instead to simply give a gift to make one feel morally righteous. The wealthy have been doing this trick for centuries and the monks & priests having been benefiting from this also for centuries. It is probably why we debate over what Dhamma really is. The Buddha said: "Be my heirs to Dhamma and not to material things" but obviously monks came along who changed the Dhamma so they could be heirs to material things. :)
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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