Bhikkhuni in the First Buddhist Council

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Polar Bear
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Re: Bhikkhuni in the First Buddhist Council

Post by Polar Bear » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:05 pm

Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:46 pm
I am aware of this new understanding, however I'm not quite sure it fits in this case, although it might. There are a few extenuating circumstances that make it different from the typical sutta beginning that it tends to mostly applies to. As I said above, it would be neat for a senior monastic scholar like Bhante Analayo to weigh in with his speculations.Otherwise we are not going to get very far.
Yeah, looking it over in the English translation it certainly seems to be just referring to monks going off context. I agree it would be neat if Ven Anālayo weighed in though.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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DooDoot
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Re: Bhikkhuni in the First Buddhist Council

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:23 pm

Polar Bear wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 6:30 pm
In what follows we examine whether the use of the vocative bhikkhave or the nominative bhikkhu in Buddhist canonical texts imply that female monastics are being excluded from the audience. In the course of exploring this basic point, we also take up the vocative of proper names and the absence of the term arahantī in Pāli discourse literature.
I’m sure we can rely on the text only referring to bhikkhus to conclude the status of bhikkhunis. I doubt Ven Anālayo can provide weight, here.

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Re: Bhikkhuni in the First Buddhist Council

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:09 pm

Polar Bear wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:05 pm
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 8:46 pm
I am aware of this new understanding, however I'm not quite sure it fits in this case, although it might. There are a few extenuating circumstances that make it different from the typical sutta beginning that it tends to mostly applies to. As I said above, it would be neat for a senior monastic scholar like Bhante Analayo to weigh in with his speculations.Otherwise we are not going to get very far.
Yeah, looking it over in the English translation it certainly seems to be just referring to monks going off context. I agree it would be neat if Ven Anālayo weighed in though.

:anjali:

I was just reading through the Mahaparinibbana sutta for a class, with Bhante Sujato's new translation using the gender neutral "mendicants" for Bhikkhu, and saw this :
As long as the mendicants honor, respect, esteem, and venerate the senior mendicants—of long standing, long gone forth, fathers and leaders of the Saṅgha—and think them worth listening to, they can expect growth, not decline.
so this is at least one example with a gendered word to match the bhikkhu term.
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DooDoot
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Re: Bhikkhuni in the First Buddhist Council

Post by DooDoot » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:13 pm

Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:09 pm
so this is at least one example with a gendered word to match the bhikkhu term.
Some things are born of woman and other things are born of man (manas; mind).
15. Jesus said, "When you see one who was not born of woman, fall on your faces and worship. That one is your Father."

Gospel of Thomas
While my mother worked & toiled for her family, the women who joined the Buddha's Sangha were like women who marry very wealthy men. They joined an institution that was already established yet did nothing to establish it. Thus Lord Buddha provided a heavy task for the bhikkhuni, which is something very difficult for women to naturally do (contrary to their domineering & demanding nature), namely, show gratitude.

The general defilement men must overcome is the sexual objectification of women. The general defilement women must overcome is the using (taking advantage) of men. Its seems like the modern Western Feminist bhikkhuni movement is not interested in eradicating the instinctual female defilement. It gets even worse when the bhikkhu who have overcome lust for women treat bhikkhuni like they don't exist; which is contrary to the female instinct of demanding attention.

;)
Last edited by DooDoot on Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:26 pm, edited 7 times in total.

SarathW
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Re: Bhikkhuni in the First Buddhist Council

Post by SarathW » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:18 pm

I’m not sure we can rely on the text only referring to bhikkhus to conclude there were no bhikkhunis.
No. I do not think so.
Political correctness an feminism is a late idea.
It is ridiculous for us to expect Sutta to say Bhikkhu/Bhikkhuni.
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Re: Bhikkhuni in the First Buddhist Council

Post by SarathW » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:14 am

I recall "arahanti" for female arahants.
:tongue:
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Re: Bhikkhuni in the First Buddhist Council

Post by TRobinson465 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:27 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:18 pm
I’m not sure we can rely on the text only referring to bhikkhus to conclude there were no bhikkhunis.
...It is ridiculous for us to expect Sutta to say Bhikkhu/Bhikkhuni.
That's a good point, just like "you guys" can refer to a group of males and females. Anyone aware of suttas where both bhikkhu and bhikkhuni are addressed?
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SarathW
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Re: Bhikkhuni in the First Buddhist Council

Post by SarathW » Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:51 am

I posted a similar question in SC.
Bhante Sujato came up with something very interesting.
===========
Like most texts, the canonical accounts of the Councils do not mention the presence of bhikkhunis, and only monks are said to be present. However one might doubt this, since there are multiple places in the suttas where only monks are mentioned, yet it appears bhikkhunis were actually present.

However, the situation is different. In all the canonical accounts, the Councils are presented as Vinaya procedures. They are included in the Vinaya, take the form of Vinaya acts, and include disciplinary measures.

In the Vinaya, with the exception of certain specialized acts such as bhikkhuni ordination, monks and nuns do not participate in the same acts.

This finds additional support in the detail that the suttas—in places such as the Sangiti Sutta and elsewhere—speak of all 4 assemblies reciting the Dhamma. This was clearly the default position in the suttas, and probably reflects the Buddha’s own wishes. Thus the Vinaya accounts, by standing against the Sutta accounts, are more likely to represent a genuine situation, rather than simply “following the crowd” so to speak. (This is similar to the principle Lectio difficilior potior)

Thus the evidence we have for the Councils strongly supports the conclusion that there were no bhikkhunis present.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/we ... il/9941/13
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Bhikkhuni in the First Buddhist Council

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara » Mon Jul 09, 2018 10:59 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Jul 09, 2018 2:51 am
I posted a similar question in SC.
Bhante Sujato came up with something very interesting.
===========
Like most texts, the canonical accounts of the Councils do not mention the presence of bhikkhunis, and only monks are said to be present. However one might doubt this, since there are multiple places in the suttas where only monks are mentioned, yet it appears bhikkhunis were actually present.

However, the situation is different. In all the canonical accounts, the Councils are presented as Vinaya procedures. They are included in the Vinaya, take the form of Vinaya acts, and include disciplinary measures.

In the Vinaya, with the exception of certain specialized acts such as bhikkhuni ordination, monks and nuns do not participate in the same acts.

This finds additional support in the detail that the suttas—in places such as the Sangiti Sutta and elsewhere—speak of all 4 assemblies reciting the Dhamma. This was clearly the default position in the suttas, and probably reflects the Buddha’s own wishes. Thus the Vinaya accounts, by standing against the Sutta accounts, are more likely to represent a genuine situation, rather than simply “following the crowd” so to speak. (This is similar to the principle Lectio difficilior potior)

Thus the evidence we have for the Councils strongly supports the conclusion that there were no bhikkhunis present.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/we ... il/9941/13

yes I saw this, and as I suspected it is different when it comes to Vinaya, I'm glad Bhante Sujato chimed in on this.
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