Touching Money

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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khemindas
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Re: Touching Money

Post by khemindas » Thu Sep 13, 2018 11:45 am

1) Strictness in VInaya doesn't depend on nikaya, I saw dhammayut abbot driving car to market and buying food there at Nakhon Ratchasima (Khorat) province.
2) Laypeople to much attached external rules, some rules for example such as wrongly built monastery or hut are heavier than handling money, because first is sanghadisesa, and require purification procedure, while second is nissagiya pacittya and require only giving up things and confessing. But nobody among laypeople worries about these wrongly built monasteries or huts, but only speaking about outer rules. Even for example eating food afternoon is lesser than handling money, but many laypeople perceiving is as heavier
3) Monastic rules are first of all are training rules, that are business for monks, it creates less disturbance is monks mind, when he don't need to worry about money and other things. Right way for monk follow rules for himself not for other people. Some monks in a public can be seeing as very strict, but what do they do privately you don't know. So rules first of all serves as benefits for monk himself, not as demonstration for laypeople. If he can't train now in some rules, may be later he will train better, many things depend on circumstances. Some monks may be very strict in the beginning of monastic life, but later become less strict, and some monks on contrary. Mostly monks who from beginning start very strict vinaya practice, disrobe very fastly. At least monks should keep from beginning Garu rules - Heavy rules (Parajika and Sanghadisesa), what makes monk pure monk, if he can find way to keep all Nissagiya pacittya rules it's good for him if can't, may be future he can, same for pacittiya, sekhiya and other training rules.

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khemindas
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Re: Touching Money

Post by khemindas » Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:52 pm

Also need to add, that monks who commit Nissagiya are still pure monks and object for veneration by junior monks. So if older monk use money, and junior monk don't use, junior still should venerate this senior, you can read at khandaka or at BMC part 2, list of who shouldn't be venerated, from rules class only sanghadisesa included as offence, that which is committed making monk forbidden for respect and veneration by junior monk.

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StormBorn
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Re: Touching Money

Post by StormBorn » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:35 am

khemindas wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:52 pm
Also need to add, that monks who commit Nissagiya are still pure monks and object for veneration by junior monks. So if older monk use money, and junior monk don't use, junior still should venerate this senior, you can read at khandaka or at BMC part 2, list of who shouldn't be venerated, from rules class only sanghadisesa included as offence, that which is committed making monk forbidden for respect and veneration by junior monk.
How about if a monk accepts and uses money explicitly and encourages his students to do so. Isn't he an adhammavaadi (one who promotes & spreads adhamma) and shouldn't be venerated by juniors.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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khemindas
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Re: Touching Money

Post by khemindas » Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:36 am

Dhamma and Vinaya are different things, purpose of vinaya is only to support and help Dhamma, while vinaya by itself without Dhamma can't lead to emancipation, Dhamma without vinaya can lead to emancipation.

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StormBorn
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Re: Touching Money

Post by StormBorn » Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:05 pm

khemindas wrote:
Mon Sep 17, 2018 8:52 pm
Also need to add, that monks who commit Nissagiya are still pure monks and object for veneration by junior monks. So if older monk use money, and junior monk don't use, junior still should venerate this senior, you can read at khandaka or at BMC part 2, list of who shouldn't be venerated, from rules class only sanghadisesa included as offence, that which is committed making monk forbidden for respect and veneration by junior monk.
Here, Buddha says otherwise, and this is from Dhamma:
“Upavāṇa, how many qualities should a senior mendicant have to be dear and beloved to their spiritual companions, respected and admired?”

“Sir, a senior mendicant with five qualities is dear and beloved to their spiritual companions, respected and admired. What five? [1]It’s when a mendicant is ethical, restrained in the code of conduct, and has appropriate behavior and means of collecting alms. Seeing danger in the slightest flaw, they keep the rules they’ve undertaken. [2]They’re very learned, remembering and keeping what they’ve learned. These teachings are good in the beginning, good in the middle, and good in the end, meaningful and well-phrased, describing a spiritual practice that’s totally full and pure. They are very learned in such teachings, remembering them, reciting them, mentally scrutinizing them, and understanding them with right view. [3]They’re a good speaker, with a polished, clear, and articulate voice that expresses the meaning. [4]They get the four absorptions—blissful meditations in the present life that belong to the higher mind—when they want, without trouble or difficulty. [5]They realize the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life. And they live having realized it with their own insight due to the ending of defilements. A senior mendicant with these five qualities is dear and beloved to their spiritual companions, respected and admired.”

“Good, good, Upavāṇa! A senior mendicant with these five qualities is dear and beloved to their spiritual companions, respected and admired. If these five qualities are not found in a senior mendicant, why would their spiritual companions honor, respect, revere, or venerate them? Because of their broken teeth, gray hair, and wrinkled skin? But since these five qualities are found in a senior mendicant, their spiritual companions honor, respect, revere, or venerate them.”
- AN 5.166
khemindas wrote:
Tue Sep 18, 2018 7:36 am
Dhamma and Vinaya are different things, purpose of vinaya is only to support and help Dhamma, while vinaya by itself without Dhamma can't lead to emancipation, Dhamma without vinaya can lead to emancipation.
Isn't killing, sex, stealing, lying like things are both in Dhamma and Vinaya, and in the Middle Path too? Isn't it a breach of trust on the bhikkhu's refuge when he starts knowingly breaking precepts that were agreed to follow when he take higher ordination? Actually, eating at PM and accepting money rules also come in Dhamma.

One venerable pointed to me that knowingly breaking rules makes the bhikkhu an "alajji" (shameless one), and one should not take such a monk as a guide/teacher.
“Bhikkhus, one should not live under the guidance of those who are shameless. Whoever should so live, there is an offence of wrong doing. I allow you, to wait for four or five days until [you can say]: 'I know what is the nature of the bhikkhus.'”
— Book of Discipline IV, 117
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

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