Touching Money

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
SarathW
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Re: Touching Money

Post by SarathW » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:14 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:38 am
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 9:12 am
trusting in kamma to provide" is a hard one.
True! On that topic I have an interesting story:
Bhante Sujato was going to speak at some conference in Indonesia. He flew into the country, changed planes, and flew to some small regional city. He got off the plane, and waited for his pre-arranged ride outside the terminal.
And waited. And waited...
...and he finally went back inside, found a wifi hotspot, and checked his email to see if he could contact the layperson who was coming to pick him up.
As he read his email he realized he was in the wrong city, 400 miles from where he should be! He knew nobody in the city, there was no Buddhist centre or temple in the area, and the population was mostly Muslim and a few Christians.
At that moment, in this small regional Indonesian city, a woman walked past and said "Oh hello Bhante Sujato, what are you doing here? I haven't seen you since I was last in Australia".
He was amazed, and he explained, and she and her husband gave him a place to sleep for the night, and drove him all he way to the conference the next day.
Kamma or coincidence, who knows!
If I remember correctly he said he knows less than perhaps 50 Indonesian people, and so that makes the odds of meeting someone he knew there at less than 1 in Five Million.
Thank you for sharing the story.
The biggest problem is many lay Buddhist do not understand the monk's rules.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Touching Money

Post by SarathW » Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:17 pm

I've been given a sort of pre-paid card for that use
The day you get rid of this card (it is money) you will be one step closer to Nibbana.
:stirthepot:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Bhikkhu_Jayasara
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Re: Touching Money

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara » Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:56 pm

SarathW wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 12:17 pm
I've been given a sort of pre-paid card for that use
The day you get rid of this card (it is money) you will be one step closer to Nibbana.
:stirthepot:
It's not a credit card, its something that someone has put money on for me, not all that different then a lay person taking care of a bank account for you.

I have a similar thing for the subways of NYC, a card that each time I use the price is deducted from the person's account.

It gets a little complicated as to whether that is considered under the rule of using money, different people will say different things about it. The things I mentioned may more likely fall under the rule for not trading, although I technically do not receive a good, nor have to sign a paper.

Thanissaro Bhikkhu states the following in the BMC -
pg 203 BMC 1

2) As mentioned under NP 18, checks, credit cards, debit cards, and traveler's
checks do not count as gold or money. However, any trade arranged with them
would come under this rule.

In cases where an actual physical item is handed over to the seller in the course of
such a trade, the trade is accomplished in the physical exchange, with no need to
wait for funds to enter the seller's account for the offense to be incurred. This is
because "object" under this rule can be fulfilled by an item of the least inherent
monetary value.

For instance, if a bhikkhu hands a check to a seller — or tells his steward to hand it
over — in exchange for goods or services in the manner specified by this rule, he
would commit the full offense the moment the check and goods change hands.
Buddhist Monastic Code 1
204
Similarly with credit cards: The offense is committed when the bhikkhu hands the
signed credit card receipt — or has it handed — to the seller and receives goods or
services in return. The receipt is an acknowledgement of the goods or services
received from the seller, which in the context of the cardholder's agreement with the
credit card company is his promise to repay the loan he is taking out with the
company. This promise is what the bhikkhu is trading with the seller, who will then
use it to draw funds from the company's account.

If, however, no physical item is handed over to the seller, the trade is not
accomplished until funds enter the seller's account. An example would be a debit
card: The full offense is committed only when, after pushing the personal
identification number (PIN) — which is his order to the bank to pay the seller — the
bhikkhu receives goods and services from the seller, and funds are transferred to
the seller's account from his.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Bhikkhu Jayasāra -http://www.youtube.com/studentofthepath and https://bhikkhujayasara.wordpress.com/

santa100
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Re: Touching Money

Post by santa100 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:28 pm

SarathW wrote:The day you get rid of this card (it is money) you will be one step closer to Nibbana.
I wouldn't go that far but it sure gave a good reminder to all monastics who haven't attained Arahantship to constantly remember that as long as they have not attained the highest fruit, the spending on food, clothing, shelter, etc. are all considered as debts and they're all debtors. If one's unable to repay with their progress on the Path, at the very least, their own virtuous conducts, then they can bet their behinds that these debts must be repaid in some later lifetimes, in some way, shape, or form.

SarathW
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Re: Touching Money

Post by SarathW » Sat Jul 07, 2018 10:40 pm

I have a similar thing for the subways of NYC, a card that each time I use the price is deducted from the person's account.
I understand the practicality of living in a modern society.
However, we should not justify our wrong and right.
It is better to accept that modern-day city monastics have to break the rule and it is not the perfect environment for a monk.
I do not think any sensible person will object to a monk using a rail pass.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

TRobinson465
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Re: Touching Money

Post by TRobinson465 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:40 pm

Yes, I think there certainly are cases and circumstances where monks just have to use money. In some cases there is just no way to get from point A to point B without it, and some temples just don't have the supporter base to allow monks to be able to carry on some tasks without using money.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Re: Touching Money

Post by TRobinson465 » Sat Jul 07, 2018 11:42 pm

I can certainly see why the other arahants at the first Buddhist council vilified Ananda for not asking the Buddha which rules were the minor rules. It'd be very helpful if we knew if this counted as a minor rule or not.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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mikenz66
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Re: Touching Money

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:13 am

Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Sat Jul 07, 2018 2:56 pm
It's not a credit card, its something that someone has put money on for me, not all that different then a lay person taking care of a bank account for you.

I have a similar thing for the subways of NYC, a card that each time I use the price is deducted from the person's account.
...
Thanks for all of the interesting input. One issue Id like to raise is that if Ven Jayasara, for example, needs to travel, then making use of a card is much less burden on his lay supporters than expecting someone to accompany him or drive him. If a well-supported monastic expects to essentially have a servant to follow him around to allow him to avoid technically using money himself, then that seems to me to be against the spirit of the training....

:heart:
Mike

SarathW
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Re: Touching Money

Post by SarathW » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:27 am

One issue Id like to raise is that if Ven Jayasara, for example, needs to travel
Why monks have to travel by automobiles and planes?
Can't they walk like Jason the wondering monk?
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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mikenz66
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Re: Touching Money

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:45 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 12:27 am
One issue Id like to raise is that if Ven Jayasara, for example, needs to travel
Why monks have to travel by automobiles and planes?
Can't they walk like Jason the wondering monk?
It's hard to get to New Zealand by walking...

:heart:
Mike

SarathW
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Re: Touching Money

Post by SarathW » Sun Jul 08, 2018 1:06 am

then making use of a card is much less burden on his lay supporters than expecting someone to accompany him or drive him.
Money makes you independent.
Monks are depended on the lay people.
When monks become independent they distance from the lay people.
This is what happens in Sri Lanka.
People think that give some money and monks can look after themselves.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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pilgrim
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Re: Touching Money

Post by pilgrim » Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:19 am

I thought that the Buddha made the rule against touching gold and silver because that was the currency of that time. But the story of the monk requesting for the kahapana indicates that money already existed then. So why did the Buddha make that rule only against gold and silver ?

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robertk
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Re: Touching Money

Post by robertk » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:04 am

Whoever agrees to gold or money, headman, also agrees to the five strands of sensual pleasure, and whoever agrees to the five strands of sensual pleasure, headman, you may take it for certain that this is not the way of a recluse, that this is not the way of a Buddhist monk
.
Monks, there are these four stains because of which the sun and moon glow not, shine not, blaze not. What are these four? Rain clouds... snow clouds... smoke and dust... and an eclipse. Even so, monks, there are these four stains because of which monks and priests glow not, shine not, blaze not. What are these four? Drinking alcohol... indulging in sexual intercourse... accepting gold or money... obtaining one's requisites through a wrong mode of livelihood. These are the four stains, monks, because of which monks and priests glow not, shine not, blaze not

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pilgrim
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Re: Touching Money

Post by pilgrim » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:09 am

Thanks Robert. Could you cite the sutta please? and would you know the Pali word translated as money here?

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robertk
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Re: Touching Money

Post by robertk » Sun Jul 08, 2018 3:18 am

pilgrim wrote:
Sun Jul 08, 2018 2:19 am
I thought that the Buddha made the rule against touching gold and silver because that was the currency of that time. But the story of the monk requesting for the kahapana indicates that money already existed then. So why did the Buddha make that rule only against gold and silver ?
Nissaggiya Pacittiya 182:
Rajataṃ nāma kahāpaṇo lohamāsako dārumāsako jatumāsako ye vohāraṃ gacchanti
Rajata means: a kahapana (= “dollar”), a coin of copper (or simply “metal”), a coin of wood, a coin of lac, whatever is used as a medium of exchange

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