Nissarana Vanaya

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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mikenz66
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Re: Nissarana Vanaya

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:04 pm

Sroberto wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:53 am
But that is laughable on its face ecause the. Abhidhamma came, what, a thousand years after the buddha? Didn"t the buddha warn against adding to and tinkering with the teachings?
I think you're thinking of late commentary rather than Canonical Abhidhamma, which is largely an analysis of the suttas. It's in the much later commentarial works that you find mind moments, and so on. Unfortunately, "Abhidhamma" now tends to mean "Abhidhamma Commentaries"...
Sujato wrote:...
The long-standing consensus among historical scholars is that the books of the Abhidhamma were compiled in the centuries after the Buddha. It is not possible to determine definite dates. However, it is likely that the common core of the Vibhaṅga/Dharmaskandha/Śāripūtrābhidharmaśastra predates the separation between these traditions, which happened around the time of King Ashoka in about 250 BCE, less than two centuries after the Buddha’s death. But the bulk of the content must have been developed after this time. A number of details, such as the fact that the works were accepted as canonical in the Milinda, around 100 BCE, suggests that they were completed before this time. So a range of 300 BCE–100 BCE for the composition of the canonical Abhidhamma texts seems reasonable.
...
While they introduced a number of new terms and methods, the canonical Abhidhamma texts are doctrinally conservative. Many of the concepts familiar from later Abhidhamma are not found—ultimate vs. conventional truth, mind moments, kalāpas, the idea that each phenomena is defined by its sabhāva or indvidual essence. While some new terms are found, for the most part they seem to have been introduced in order to clarify and disambiguate the terminology, and weren’t intended to convey specific new concepts. That is not to say that there are no new ideas, just that they play a fairly minor role overall.
...
https://suttacentral.net/abhidhamma
:heart:
Mike

Sroberto
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Re: Nissarana Vanaya

Post by Sroberto » Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:25 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 12:04 pm
Sroberto wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 10:53 am
But that is laughable on its face ecause the. Abhidhamma came, what, a thousand years after the buddha? Didn"t the buddha warn against adding to and tinkering with the teachings?
I think you're thinking of late commentary rather than Canonical Abhidhamma, which is largely an analysis of the suttas. It's in the much later commentarial works that you find mind moments, and so on. Unfortunately, "Abhidhamma" now tends to mean "Abhidhamma Commentaries"...
Sujato wrote:...
The long-standing consensus among historical scholars is that the books of the Abhidhamma were compiled in the centuries after the Buddha. It is not possible to determine definite dates. However, it is likely that the common core of the Vibhaṅga/Dharmaskandha/Śāripūtrābhidharmaśastra predates the separation between these traditions, which happened around the time of King Ashoka in about 250 BCE, less than two centuries after the Buddha’s death. But the bulk of the content must have been developed after this time. A number of details, such as the fact that the works were accepted as canonical in the Milinda, around 100 BCE, suggests that they were completed before this time. So a range of 300 BCE–100 BCE for the composition of the canonical Abhidhamma texts seems reasonable.
...
While they introduced a number of new terms and methods, the canonical Abhidhamma texts are doctrinally conservative. Many of the concepts familiar from later Abhidhamma are not found—ultimate vs. conventional truth, mind moments, kalāpas, the idea that each phenomena is defined by its sabhāva or indvidual essence. While some new terms are found, for the most part they seem to have been introduced in order to clarify and disambiguate the terminology, and weren’t intended to convey specific new concepts. That is not to say that there are no new ideas, just that they play a fairly minor role overall.
...
https://suttacentral.net/abhidhamma
:heart:
Mike
Thank you. You are correct.

Do you have any direct experience with Nissarana Vanaya?

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mikenz66
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Re: Nissarana Vanaya

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Jun 15, 2018 1:06 pm

No, sorry, I've never been to Sri Lanka. I'm only aware of it because it is where Ven Nananada was for 20 years, until the death of the Abbot (the "Most Venerable Great Preceptor" in the Nibbana Sermons - Nibbana, the mind stilled http://seeingthroughthenet.net/books/) in 1992. So, of course, things will have changed a lot since then! It seems that at that time the meditation approach was based on the Mahasi approach but with an emphasis also on anapanasati, and the Mahasi/Anapanasati approach is very obvious in Ven Nananada's meditation books. And, although he had some criticisms of the commentaries, notably a very different interpretation of the first half the dependent origination links, his discourses and instructions do seem to make use of some classical frameworks, such as the insight knowledges, and the occurrence of nibbana at each noble attainment.

:heart:
Mike

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StormBorn
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Re: Nissarana Vanaya

Post by StormBorn » Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:47 pm

Sroberto wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:39 pm
Anyone with direct personal experience with Nissarana Vanaya in Sri Lanka?
Why Sri Lanka but not Myanmar or Thailand or a Western monastery like Bodhiyana? I'm asking out of curiosity.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

Sroberto
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Re: Nissarana Vanaya

Post by Sroberto » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:36 am

StormBorn wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:47 pm
Sroberto wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:39 pm
Anyone with direct personal experience with Nissarana Vanaya in Sri Lanka?
Why Sri Lanka but not Myanmar or Thailand or a Western monastery like Bodhiyana? I'm asking out of curiosity.
SL offers the best all around environment for practicing seriously plus long term visa, strong support from lay devotees. I have lived in Thailand and Burma. I have visited many western hermitages. They dont feel right to me. Its personal impression more than anything else.

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StormBorn
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Re: Nissarana Vanaya

Post by StormBorn » Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:32 pm

Sroberto wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:36 am
StormBorn wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:47 pm
Sroberto wrote:
Wed Jun 13, 2018 12:39 pm
Anyone with direct personal experience with Nissarana Vanaya in Sri Lanka?
Why Sri Lanka but not Myanmar or Thailand or a Western monastery like Bodhiyana? I'm asking out of curiosity.
SL offers the best all around environment for practicing seriously plus long term visa, strong support from lay devotees. I have lived in Thailand and Burma. I have visited many western hermitages. They dont feel right to me. Its personal impression more than anything else.
This is what a Western senior monk who's in robe for almost 40 years wrote to another:
I can understand how disappointed you are with the monastic scene in Sri Lanka, indeed it was part of the reason I left, but it is hardly any different anywhere else, so doesn't help much.
“Greater in battle than the man who would conquer a thousand-thousand men, is he who would conquer just one—himself.”

Sroberto
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:29 am

Re: Nissarana Vanaya

Post by Sroberto » Sat Jun 16, 2018 5:06 pm

StormBorn wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:32 pm
Sroberto wrote:
Sat Jun 16, 2018 3:36 am
StormBorn wrote:
Fri Jun 15, 2018 2:47 pm

Why Sri Lanka but not Myanmar or Thailand or a Western monastery like Bodhiyana? I'm asking out of curiosity.
SL offers the best all around environment for practicing seriously plus long term visa, strong support from lay devotees. I have lived in Thailand and Burma. I have visited many western hermitages. They dont feel right to me. Its personal impression more than anything else.
This is what a Western senior monk who's in robe for almost 40 years wrote to another:
I can understand how disappointed you are with the monastic scene in Sri Lanka, indeed it was part of the reason I left, but it is hardly any different anywhere else, so doesn't help much.
And that pretty much sums up why I am not considering Western monasteries.

fornoxe
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Re: Nissarana Vanaya

Post by fornoxe » Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:26 pm

We have plenty of monastery in SL. We can find one we like. But thats hard to say : ok I like that, or I dont like that. Who I am to say that? For me the main things is Love. If a abbot does not think with love and compassion, he does not understand the buddha speach.
Whatever the technic or etc. With love and compassion, everything can be done.

After in SL : better weather, better medecine, lot of stuff free of charge for monk.

Sroberto
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Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:29 am

Re: Nissarana Vanaya

Post by Sroberto » Tue Jun 19, 2018 11:51 pm

fornoxe wrote:
Tue Jun 19, 2018 10:26 pm
We have plenty of monastery in SL. We can find one we like. But thats hard to say : ok I like that, or I dont like that. Who I am to say that? For me the main things is Love. If a abbot does not think with love and compassion, he does not understand the buddha speach.
Whatever the technic or etc. With love and compassion, everything can be done.

After in SL : better weather, better medecine, lot of stuff free of charge for monk.
Thank you for sharing your advice. I will continue my search in SL.

SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Nissarana Vanaya

Post by SarathW » Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:49 am

As you might have heard the commentary tradition holds that the Abhidhamma was actually the word of the Buddha.' But clearly it is not.
In my opinion, Sutta knowledge of Dhamma without Abhidhamma is lame.
The Abhidhamma knowledge without Sutta is blind.
Vinaya Pitaka = Sila (virtues)
Sutta Pitaka = Samadhi (concentration)
Abhidhamma Pitaka = Panna (wisdom)
It is important all above should come together.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Sroberto
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Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:29 am

Re: Nissarana Vanaya

Post by Sroberto » Wed Jun 20, 2018 1:41 pm

SarathW wrote:
Wed Jun 20, 2018 11:49 am
As you might have heard the commentary tradition holds that the Abhidhamma was actually the word of the Buddha.' But clearly it is not.
In my opinion, Sutta knowledge of Dhamma without Abhidhamma is lame.
The Abhidhamma knowledge without Sutta is blind.
Vinaya Pitaka = Sila (virtues)
Sutta Pitaka = Samadhi (concentration)
Abhidhamma Pitaka = Panna (wisdom)
It is important all above should come together.
" I have set forth the Dhamma without making any distinction of esoteric and exoteric doctrine; there is nothing, Ananda, with regard to the teachings that the Tathagata holds to the last with the closed fist of a teacher who keeps some things back."

"Whatever doctrine and discipline taught and made known by me will be your teacher when I am gone."

SarathW
Posts: 9981
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Nissarana Vanaya

Post by SarathW » Wed Jun 20, 2018 7:10 pm

"Whatever doctrine and discipline taught and made known by me will be your teacher when I am gone."
:goodpost:
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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