Purge of Thai sangha

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Grigoris
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:59 pm

2600htz wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:52 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:25 am
2600htz wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:21 pm
If i say asians have on average higher IQ than westerns i am being racist? lol.
No, it would be a racialist argument, but not racist. Racism is about domination/power. Saying that Westerners can do Buddhism (an Asian philosophical/religious system) better than Asians sounds racist, especially when one considers the effects of Western colonialism in the Asian region.
Hello Grigoris:

Im afraid someone is going to tell me "back to topic", but when did i ever said "Westerns can do buddhism better than Asians"?, you are completely misquoting me.

Regards.
Let me do you the favour: :focus:
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

2600htz
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by 2600htz » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:02 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:59 pm
2600htz wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:52 pm
Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:25 am
No, it would be a racialist argument, but not racist. Racism is about domination/power. Saying that Westerners can do Buddhism (an Asian philosophical/religious system) better than Asians sounds racist, especially when one considers the effects of Western colonialism in the Asian region.
Hello Grigoris:

Im afraid someone is going to tell me "back to topic", but when did i ever said "Westerns can do buddhism better than Asians"?, you are completely misquoting me.

Regards.
Let me do you the favour: :focus:
Hello:

Hahaha fair enough, but please don´t do that in the future.

Regards.

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Bhikkhu_Jayasara
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:26 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 3:36 am
SarathW wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 2:38 am
Hi James
Considering that you had the first hand experience, is it possible a monk in modern day to live without handling money?
Absolutely yes. Even in western countries there are enough lay-buddhists around to enable a monk to survive with no money. Even away from a monastery.
And in Thailand, Burma, Sri Lanka, it is even easier. But largely for convenience, and out of laziness and disregard for the vinaya, many monks in those countries use money.

I may be the exception that proves the rule, but I do have to disagree on some respects. There have been at least 2-3 times I've had to use money, mostly in relation to work related items at the monastery, travel, and lack of lay persons around to do it.

As I say that I may be the exception, I am not Thai forest with heavy backing that would allow for me to never use money, or cook, or do any of the number of things monks don't normally do, vinaya rule or culturally.

I agree that I cannot see a reason to do it in a Buddhist country, but not every monastic in the west has the luxury of on hand laity to take care of all the needs.


That being said, I hope you are doing well my friend :)


as for government being able to meddle in the affairs of monastics, or monastics being involved in government, I think that is about the worst possible mix you can find in Buddhism. there should be a clear separation of robe and state ;P.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Bhikkhu Jayasāra -http://www.youtube.com/studentofthepath and https://bhikkhujayasara.wordpress.com/

WorldTraveller
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by WorldTraveller » Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:06 am

Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:26 pm
I agree that I cannot see a reason to do it in a Buddhist country, but not every monastic in the west has the luxury of on hand laity to take care of all the needs.
The following has happened in a Buddhist country: The family of a foreign bhikkhu transferred required funds to the bhikkhu's local helper so that he can help the bhikkhu to obtain a new passport via the embassy without going back to his home country. Unfortunately the local helper delayed way pass that deadline and stole the funds, leaving the bhikkhu no choice other than go back to his home country for a new passport.

Its' very common for helpers to steal from the funds that allocated only for the monastics.

I agree with bhante that it won't be easy to follow all the rules in the modern times as done in ancient India. Perhaps, that may be why the Buddha allowed to demolish the lessor and minor rules if Sanga agrees. But that also a complex issue.
“Do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a canonical tradition, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’”
- Kālāma-sutta

LuisR
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by LuisR » Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:50 pm

Is it common for Monks to take concubines?

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Dhammanando
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by Dhammanando » Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:45 am

LuisR wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:50 pm
Is it common for Monks to take concubines?
I think keeping a regular concubine would probably be the least common way for unchaste monks to pursue their irregularities. As it isn't something that laypeople would tolerate, any monk doing so would need to do it secretly, which for most monks would be logistically impossible. For example, in Thailand if a monk is seen regularly spending the night at the home of a single woman, widow or divorcee, then the neighbours are likely to phone the police, who will then launch a nighttime raid on the house. Likewise if a woman is seen sneaking into a monk's quarters after dark.

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Bhikkhu_Jayasara
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara » Sun Jun 10, 2018 1:22 pm

WorldTraveller wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 2:06 am
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:26 pm
I agree that I cannot see a reason to do it in a Buddhist country, but not every monastic in the west has the luxury of on hand laity to take care of all the needs.
The following has happened in a Buddhist country: The family of a foreign bhikkhu transferred required funds to the bhikkhu's local helper so that he can help the bhikkhu to obtain a new passport via the embassy without going back to his home country. Unfortunately the local helper delayed way pass that deadline and stole the funds, leaving the bhikkhu no choice other than go back to his home country for a new passport.

Its' very common for helpers to steal from the funds that allocated only for the monastics.

I agree with bhante that it won't be easy to follow all the rules in the modern times as done in ancient India. Perhaps, that may be why the Buddha allowed to demolish the lessor and minor rules if Sanga agrees. But that also a complex issue.

To be clear, i'm not necessarily for changing or throwing out the rules, I think they are there for good reasons, however there may be times when they cannot be followed to the letter, as you state and my point from my other post.

even if I find no other way out of it (like for instance when I was stranded in the city, missed my bus due to traffic, and had no one near that could help) I am still quite clear in recognizing that I am breaking a monastic rule, the reason behind it, and the desire to avoid it as much as possible in the future. Then when I can also confessing it.

just from my own short 2 years of experience living under the vinaya, I can tell you it is a VERY slippery slope to start justifying ignoring rules, and one no monastic should want to go down, because I can't see it leading to anywhere good.
______________________________________________________________________________________________________
Bhikkhu Jayasāra -http://www.youtube.com/studentofthepath and https://bhikkhujayasara.wordpress.com/

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mikenz66
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Jun 10, 2018 9:27 pm

Thank you for your input, Bhante,
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:26 pm
I may be the exception that proves the rule, but I do have to disagree on some respects. There have been at least 2-3 times I've had to use money, mostly in relation to work related items at the monastery, travel, and lack of lay persons around to do it.
...
As you say, the practicality of some of the rules obviously depend on the depth of support of your organisation, and, of course, where you are.

Some of the monastics I've known have lamented that they would like to be free of money, like famous visitor X or Y. On the other hand, a youngish Ajahn Chah Group monk from somewhere in Europe turned up at our Wat last year for a couple of days. He had been travelling around New Zealand alone. Sometimes he got to where he planned, sometimes not...

Modern developments may well make some things easier for those who don't have an extensive support network. For example, a lay person can now purchase a plane ticket, or whatever, on the internet and a monastic can pick it up on their phone. That's a lot less burdensome and more efficient than physically accompanying them...

:heart:
Mike

LuisR
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by LuisR » Tue Jun 12, 2018 6:32 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Sun Jun 10, 2018 6:45 am
LuisR wrote:
Sat Jun 09, 2018 8:50 pm
Is it common for Monks to take concubines?
I think keeping a regular concubine would probably be the least common way for unchaste monks to pursue their irregularities. As it isn't something that laypeople would tolerate, any monk doing so would need to do it secretly, which for most monks would be logistically impossible. For example, in Thailand if a monk is seen regularly spending the night at the home of a single woman, widow or divorcee, then the neighbours are likely to phone the police, who will then launch a nighttime raid on the house. Likewise if a woman is seen sneaking into a monk's quarters after dark.
LOL Yeah that seems like way too much trouble to have the cops in riot gear bust down your door and drag you out at gun point. :rofl:

paul
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by paul » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:40 am

The problem in Thailand is the lack of a properly formed secular state, allowing religion to dominate is unrealistic and does not adhere to Theravada duality. Conventional matters must be handled by a secular authority separate from religion.

TRobinson465
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by TRobinson465 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:15 pm

So back to the actual topic of the OP. Heres some interesting articles on the purge. Helps to explain the whole "why now?" question. There's also apparently a wikipedia page dedicated to the events.

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2018/ ... hist-monks

http://www.newmandala.org/whats-behind- ... ai-sangha/

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2017%E2%8 ... stigations
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

TRobinson465
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by TRobinson465 » Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:36 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 3:36 am
SarathW wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 2:38 am
Hi James
Considering that you had the first hand experience, is it possible a monk in modern day to live without handling money?
Absolutely yes. Even in western countries there are enough lay-buddhists around to enable a monk to survive with no money. Even away from a monastery.
And in Thailand, Burma, Sri Lanka, it is even easier. But largely for convenience, and out of laziness and disregard for the vinaya, many monks in those countries use money.
On a side note, id like to respond to this. I agree it is possible to live without handling money in the modern world, but I don't think your being totally fair. Buddhism is very much in decline in countries like Thailand as the country becomes more secularized and many temples do not have full time lay staff or sufficient lay volunteers to do everything monks cant. In fact, most of the Asian temples I've visited have monks that drive cars because there is no layperson to drive them around and must handle money to pay bills since there is no staff. The temple I go to doesn't do these things, but I found that my temple very much an exception rather than a rule. and Western temples arent really a good base for comparison since having a White monk at a temple automatically makes it a celebrity temple that ppl flock to support.

If you visit some local temples outside of the more popular temples (temples with white monks or temples of popular lineages) they really just don't have anyone to handle money or drive them places they need to go to etc. You are right that not every monk that does do these things does it because they have to, but some really do.
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by JamesTheGiant » Sun Jul 01, 2018 8:20 am

TRobinson465 wrote:
Sat Jun 30, 2018 11:36 pm
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 3:36 am
SarathW wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 2:38 am
Hi James
Considering that you had the first hand experience, is it possible a monk in modern day to live without handling money?
Absolutely yes. Even in western countries there are enough lay-buddhists around to enable a monk to survive with no money. Even away from a monastery.
And in Thailand, Burma, Sri Lanka, it is even easier. But largely for convenience, and out of laziness and disregard for the vinaya, many monks in those countries use money.
On a side note, id like to respond to this. I agree it is possible to live without handling money in the modern world, but I don't think your being totally fair. Buddhism is very much in decline in countries like Thailand as the country becomes more secularized and many temples do not have full time lay staff or sufficient lay volunteers to do everything monks cant. In fact, most of the Asian temples I've visited have monks that drive cars because there is no layperson to drive them around and must handle money to pay bills since there is no staff. The temple I go to doesn't do these things, but I found that my temple very much an exception rather than a rule. and Western temples arent really a good base for comparison since having a White monk at a temple automatically makes it a celebrity temple that ppl flock to support.

If you visit some local temples outside of the more popular temples (temples with white monks or temples of popular lineages) they really just don't have anyone to handle money or drive them places they need to go to etc. You are right that not every monk that does do these things does it because they have to, but some really do.
That's fair, thanks for your response. It's always good to hear the opposite opinion presented well.

TRobinson465
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Location: United States

Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by TRobinson465 » Wed Jul 25, 2018 2:44 am

Probably the reason for the purge. Thailand's despotic regime taking even more control over the Sangha after deciding to handpick the Supreme Patriarch a few years ago.

http://www.nationmultimedia.com/detail/ ... l/30349413
"Do not have blind faith, but also no blind criticism" - the 14th Dalai Lama

"At Varanasi, in the Deer Park at Isipatana, the Blessed One has set in motion the unexcelled Wheel of Dhamma that cannot be stopped by brahmins, devas, Maras, Brahmas or anyone in the cosmos." -Dhammacakkappavattana Sutta

"Go forth, monks, for the good of the many, for the happiness of the many, out of compassion for the world, for the welfare, the good and the happiness of gods and men. Let no two of you go in the same direction." - First Khandhaka, Chapter 11, Vinaya.

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Grigoris
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by Grigoris » Wed Jul 25, 2018 7:38 am

Most common folk I spoke to considered it a political, rather than a religious purge.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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