Purge of Thai sangha

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jun 07, 2018 6:25 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:15 pm

Is it true that most Asian monasteries are now cultural centers with little to no interest in practicing what the Buddha taught?.
If that is true western monasteries or forest traditions are a better option at this time?.
I think Pseudobabble might be picking up the same point that I made earlier. One can posit differences between regions, traditions, and cultures without having recourse to the idea of race. It is possible that someone thinks that such differences are based on innate racial differences, but also possible that they don't think that. It might be more a matter of culture, economics, politics, history, or some other factor.

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mikenz66
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:35 pm

Whether you call it "race", "culture", "background", "geography", or whatever, doesn't actually change the meaning does it? It's still a dismisal of a large group of people.

:heart:
Mike

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Sam Vara
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by Sam Vara » Thu Jun 07, 2018 8:35 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:35 pm
Whether you call it "race", "culture", "background", "geography", or whatever, doesn't actually change the meaning does it? It's still a dismisal of a large group of people.

:heart:
Mike
It certainly is, but I think the grounds for dismissal (or positing differences) are very important here. People are generally much happier to be told (say) that their country is a mess because of recent history or geographical difficulties or political upheaval, than they are being told that it is because of their racial inferiority. Racism is a hard word to throw around, and I would rather give people the benefit of the doubt as to whether highlighting or claiming a racial difference was what they really intended.

(Edit) To put that another way, racism is the dismissal of a large group of people, whereas the other ones merely involve the recognition of external circumstances which affect those people.

2600htz
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by 2600htz » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:21 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:31 am
2600htz wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 4:47 pm
Hello:

Is it true that most Asian monasteries are now cultural centers with little to no interest in practicing what the Buddha taught?.
If that is true western monasteries or forest traditions are a better option at this time?.

Regards.
:rofl: Now that is a white western convert wet dream if I have ever seen one!

(And racist to boot).
Hello Grigoris:

Sorry but my english at times is not enough, and was unable to understand the first line of your answer.
Seems like my post sounded a bit racist? (that was not my intention), and honestly i don´t see any ground for that accusation.
If i say asians have on average higher IQ than westerns i am being racist? lol.

Regards.

2600htz
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by 2600htz » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:37 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 7:35 pm
Whether you call it "race", "culture", "background", "geography", or whatever, doesn't actually change the meaning does it? It's still a dismisal of a large group of people.

:heart:
Mike
Hello Mikenz66:
"Lord, there is a country called Sunaparanta. I am going to live there."

"Punna, the Sunaparanta people are fierce. They are rough. If they insult and ridicule you, what will you think?"

"If they insult and ridicule me, I will think, 'These Sunaparanta people are civilized, very civilized, in that they don't hit me with their hands.' That is what I will think, O Blessed One. That is what I will think, O One Well-gone."
Was the Buddha expressing a dismisal of a large group of people?.
If its true and that statement was done serving a skillful purpose i don´t see any wrong.
(And i wasn´t even making some statement, i was just asking if it was true or not) :heart: .

Regards.

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mikenz66
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by mikenz66 » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:43 pm

Well, I think it's far from true. There is "folk" and "essential" Buddhism in both Asia and in the West, and I think that it's easy to mix up the two:
viewtopic.php?t=12718

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Mike

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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by 2600htz » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:56 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:43 pm
Well, I think it's far from true. There is "folk" and "essential" Buddhism in both Asia and in the West, and I think that it's easy to mix up the two:
viewtopic.php?t=12718

:heart:
Mike
Hello Mikenz66:

Thanks for the link!, will take a look :).

Regards.

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Grigoris
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:25 am

2600htz wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:21 pm
If i say asians have on average higher IQ than westerns i am being racist? lol.
No, it would be a racialist argument, but not racist. Racism is about domination/power. Saying that Westerners can do Buddhism (an Asian philosophical/religious system) better than Asians sounds racist, especially when one considers the effects of Western colonialism in the Asian region.
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:51 am

Grigoris wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 4:15 pm
Pseudobabble wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 3:53 pm
TOS 2.d wrote: Unsubstantiated allegations against individuals or traditions - including psychoanalyzing other members, and predictions or threats of kammic retribution
Amazing how you can detect racism in comments which don't mention race..
Is it true that most Asian monasteries are now cultural centers with little to no interest in practicing what the Buddha taught?.
If that is true western monasteries or forest traditions are a better option at this time?.
facepalm.jpg
Lol, I knew you were going to say that.

Grigoris, Asian is not a race. European is not a race. American, Latin, African - none of these are races. Kenyan, not a race. Swedish - not a race. And so on.

From the Wikipedia page:
A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society. First used to refer to speakers of a common language and then to denote national affiliations, by the 17th century the term race began to refer to physical (phenotypical) traits. Modern scholarship regards race as a social construct, that is, a symbolic identity created to establish some cultural meaning. While partially based on physical similarities within groups, race is not an inherent physical or biological quality.

...

Scientists consider biological essentialism obsolete,[4] and generally discourage racial explanations for collective differentiation in both physical and behavioral traits
So race does not actually denote anything beyond some vague, undefined differentiation of people based on appearance.

Your magical ability to tell who has what kinds of thoughts about 'race' turns out to be based on uninformed assumptions about people's appearances and verbal presentation.

You, identifying 'Asians' as a race, and 'Western' as a race, are using a vague term to lump together totally unrelated people, under one label, on the basis of nothing more than their appearance, which you have called 'race'. I won't go so far as to call that attitude itself racism, but it is pretty damn close, and it is exactly this type flawed reasoning with regards to appearance and identity that allows actual racists to flourish, because this is lazy thinking that does nothing to undercut their logic. You reason from the same wrong premises as racists.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

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Grigoris
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by Grigoris » Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:59 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:51 am
Lol, I knew you were going to say that.

Grigoris, Asian is not a race. European is not a race. American, Latin, African - none of these are races. Kenyan, not a race. Swedish - not a race. And so on.

From the Wikipedia page:
A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society. First used to refer to speakers of a common language and then to denote national affiliations, by the 17th century the term race began to refer to physical (phenotypical) traits. Modern scholarship regards race as a social construct, that is, a symbolic identity created to establish some cultural meaning. While partially based on physical similarities within groups, race is not an inherent physical or biological quality.

...

Scientists consider biological essentialism obsolete,[4] and generally discourage racial explanations for collective differentiation in both physical and behavioral traits
So race does not actually denote anything beyond some vague, undefined differentiation of people based on appearance.

Your magical ability to tell who has what kinds of thoughts about 'race' turns out to be based on uninformed assumptions about people's appearances and verbal presentation.

You, identifying 'Asians' as a race, and 'Western' as a race, are using a vague term to lump together totally unrelated people, under one label, on the basis of nothing more than their appearance, which you have called 'race'. I won't go so far as to call that attitude itself racism, but it is pretty damn close, and it is exactly this type flawed reasoning with regards to appearance and identity that allows actual racists to flourish, because this is lazy thinking that does nothing to undercut their logic. You reason from the same wrong premises as racists.
Actually, apparently, there is only one race: the human race.

Race and racism are just mental constructs, but that does not mean that they do not have an impact. I am sure you can think of some examples yourself.

But I am sure you know this, so why the not-picking?
ye dhammā hetuppabhavā tesaṁ hetuṁ tathāgato āha,
tesaṃca yo nirodho - evaṁvādī mahāsamaṇo.

Of those phenomena which arise from causes:
Those causes have been taught by the Tathāgata,
And their cessation too - thus proclaims the Great Ascetic.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:09 am

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:59 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:51 am
Lol, I knew you were going to say that.

Grigoris, Asian is not a race. European is not a race. American, Latin, African - none of these are races. Kenyan, not a race. Swedish - not a race. And so on.

From the Wikipedia page:
A race is a grouping of humans based on shared physical or social qualities into categories generally viewed as distinct by society. First used to refer to speakers of a common language and then to denote national affiliations, by the 17th century the term race began to refer to physical (phenotypical) traits. Modern scholarship regards race as a social construct, that is, a symbolic identity created to establish some cultural meaning. While partially based on physical similarities within groups, race is not an inherent physical or biological quality.

...

Scientists consider biological essentialism obsolete,[4] and generally discourage racial explanations for collective differentiation in both physical and behavioral traits
So race does not actually denote anything beyond some vague, undefined differentiation of people based on appearance.

Your magical ability to tell who has what kinds of thoughts about 'race' turns out to be based on uninformed assumptions about people's appearances and verbal presentation.

You, identifying 'Asians' as a race, and 'Western' as a race, are using a vague term to lump together totally unrelated people, under one label, on the basis of nothing more than their appearance, which you have called 'race'. I won't go so far as to call that attitude itself racism, but it is pretty damn close, and it is exactly this type flawed reasoning with regards to appearance and identity that allows actual racists to flourish, because this is lazy thinking that does nothing to undercut their logic. You reason from the same wrong premises as racists.
Actually, apparently, there is only one race: the human race.

Race and racism are just mental constructs, but that does not mean that they do not have an impact. I am sure you can think of some examples yourself.

But I am sure you know this, so why the not-picking?
True. I'm sorry for being aggressive.

I find there is much confusion around this topic, and much unpleasantness, and I personally think that the only way to defeat really nasty and stupid attitudes like racism is to be very clear about what we are talking about, what 'race' refers to, what exactly it means when we use the word. Because there are facts, and opinions, and racist attitudes are not based on fact, but opinions, and nasty, unjustified ones, which can be defeated by the truth. But the truth may also include inequity, like that white people are much more prone to skin cancer, or south indian men to heart trouble - its not racism to say that, because its factual, and we cannot hide from the facts. Doing so is what provides racists with cover, by muddying the waters. That's why I got angry - actual racists will use 'Asian' and 'Western' like that too, and I think it is incumbent on us to take away from them the improper use of terms which makes them sound reasonable.

Sorry for getting upset though. I value your contributions to the forum.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

Saengnapha
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:52 am

Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:51 am

Grigoris, Asian is not a race. European is not a race. American, Latin, African - none of these are races. Kenyan, not a race. Swedish - not a race. And so on.
According to Merriam Webster: Race : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock.

I think that qualifies Asians as a race, don't you? Granted, definitions get modified, and in today's world, the definition has been expanded.

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Pseudobabble
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by Pseudobabble » Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:50 am

Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:52 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:51 am

Grigoris, Asian is not a race. European is not a race. American, Latin, African - none of these are races. Kenyan, not a race. Swedish - not a race. And so on.
According to Merriam Webster: Race : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock.

I think that qualifies Asians as a race, don't you? Granted, definitions get modified, and in today's world, the definition has been expanded.
No.

'Race' is not an identifier which refers to any consistent phenomenon in the world, unlike, say, the presence of a certain genetic marker.

the same stock.
is completely ambiguous and just defers the issue. In your definition, 'stock' plays exactly the same role as that which I am criticising for 'race' here.
"Does Master Gotama have any position at all?"

"A 'position,' Vaccha, is something that a Tathagata has done away with. What a Tathagata sees is this: 'Such is form, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is feeling, such its origination, such its disappearance; such is perception...such are fabrications...such is consciousness, such its origination, such its disappearance.'" - Aggi-Vacchagotta Sutta


'Dust thou art, and unto dust thou shalt return.' - Genesis 3:19

'Some fart freely, some try to hide and silence it. Which one is correct?' - Saegnapha

Saengnapha
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by Saengnapha » Fri Jun 08, 2018 1:17 pm

Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 9:50 am
Saengnapha wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 8:52 am
Pseudobabble wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 7:51 am

Grigoris, Asian is not a race. European is not a race. American, Latin, African - none of these are races. Kenyan, not a race. Swedish - not a race. And so on.
According to Merriam Webster: Race : a family, tribe, people, or nation belonging to the same stock.

I think that qualifies Asians as a race, don't you? Granted, definitions get modified, and in today's world, the definition has been expanded.
No.

'Race' is not an identifier which refers to any consistent phenomenon in the world, unlike, say, the presence of a certain genetic marker.

the same stock.
is completely ambiguous and just defers the issue. In your definition, 'stock' plays exactly the same role as that which I am criticising for 'race' here.
Aren't genetic markers an identifier and a consistent phenomenon? I don't get what you are saying.

If I say I hate Thai people, isn't that considered a racist remark?

2600htz
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Re: Purge of Thai sangha

Post by 2600htz » Fri Jun 08, 2018 4:52 pm

Grigoris wrote:
Fri Jun 08, 2018 5:25 am
2600htz wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:21 pm
If i say asians have on average higher IQ than westerns i am being racist? lol.
No, it would be a racialist argument, but not racist. Racism is about domination/power. Saying that Westerners can do Buddhism (an Asian philosophical/religious system) better than Asians sounds racist, especially when one considers the effects of Western colonialism in the Asian region.
Hello Grigoris:

Im afraid someone is going to tell me "back to topic", but when did i ever said "Westerns can do buddhism better than Asians"?, you are completely misquoting me.

Regards.

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