Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya?

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JubalHenshaw
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Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya?

Post by JubalHenshaw » Tue May 08, 2018 5:01 pm

Recently my wife accepted a facebook friend request from a monk we had met as part of the Sangha we hosted some time back. He stays in touch frequently and one thing that always comes up is he complains about money, not having enough to travel to events, and at times even flat out requesting money for services he conducts while overseas.

We don't have this problem with other monks from the temple, isn't this behavior a violation of rules in the Vinaya, specifically around requesting/accepting money as well as attachment?

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Bhikkhu Pesala
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Re: Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya?

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue May 08, 2018 5:14 pm

Even if it is freely offered, accepting money is a violation of the Vinaya rule, let alone asking for it. Donations can be offered to a charitable trust that runs a temple, or to a personal attendant (a lay person) who looks after his needs for travel, etc., inviting him in this way: “Venerable Sir, I have donated this amount to your personal attendant/trustees, please ask them for whatever you need.”

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Tue May 08, 2018 8:53 pm

JubalHenshaw wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 5:01 pm
Recently my wife accepted a facebook friend request from a monk we had met as part of the Sangha we hosted some time back. He stays in touch frequently and one thing that always comes up is he complains about money, not having enough to travel to events, and at times even flat out requesting money for services he conducts while overseas.

We don't have this problem with other monks from the temple, isn't this behavior a violation of rules in the Vinaya, specifically around requesting/accepting money as well as attachment?
Jubal, you should un-friend this monk on facebook. A good monk never asks for money, and it is a clear violation of vinaya.
(Also, if you like, it is not against the Buddha's teachings to tell the monk why you are unfriending him. The suttas have many examples of laypeople complaining about the behaviour of loose monks, and perhaps this will teach the monk a lesson. )

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Tue May 08, 2018 8:54 pm

PM me a link to his profile, and I'll tell him! :jumping: :twothumbsup:

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue May 08, 2018 9:03 pm

"Yes, headman, in answering in this way you are speaking in line with what I have said, you are not misrepresenting me with what is unfactual, and you are answering in line with the Dhamma so that no one whose thinking is in line with the Dhamma will have grounds for criticizing you. For money is not allowable for the Sakyan-son contemplatives, the Sakyan-son contemplatives do not consent to money, the Sakyan-son contemplatives do not accept money, the Sakyan-son contemplatives have given up gold & jewelry, have renounced money. For anyone for whom money is allowable, the five strings of sensuality are also allowable. For anyone for whom the five strings of sensuality are allowable, money is allowable. That you can unequivocally recognize as not the quality of a contemplative, not the quality of a Sakyan son.[2]

"Now I do say that thatch may be sought for by one needing thatch, wood may be sought for by one needing wood, a cart may be sought for by one needing a cart, a workman may be sought for by one needing a workman, but by no means do I say that money may be consented to or sought for in any way at all."

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html

unfortunately the vinaya is neglected by many modern monks. fortunately accepting or soliciting money isn't an offense entailing expulsion. out of compassion, you may inform him or urge him to reconsider, but even imprudent monks are worthy of reverential salutation
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dharmacorps
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Re: Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya?

Post by dharmacorps » Tue May 08, 2018 10:18 pm

So he friended you and then hounds you about money? :jawdrop:

I would unfriend him and support monks who are worthy of it.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 08, 2018 10:24 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 5:14 pm
Donations can be offered to a charitable trust that runs a temple, or to a personal attendant (a lay person) who looks after his needs for travel, etc., inviting him in this way: “Venerable Sir, I have donated this amount to your personal attendant/trustees, please ask them for whatever you need.”
Perhaps i am wrong but i'll go ahead and express my scepticism because it does kind of sound like a way to bypass the rule of not accepting money.
I don't accept money or ask lay people for anything, give the money to my lay person attendant and i will ask him for it if i need it
perhaps it is a necessity...
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Tue May 08, 2018 10:46 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:24 pm
Donations can be offered to a charitable trust that runs a temple, or to a personal attendant (a lay person) who looks after his needs for travel, etc., inviting him in this way: “Venerable Sir, I have donated this amount to your personal attendant/trustees, please ask them for whatever you need.”
Perhaps i am wrong but i'll go ahead and express my scepticism because it does kind of sound like a way to bypass the rule of not accepting money.
This is the way the Buddha said to do it. This way the monks have no control over the money, and can't just use it for whatever.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 08, 2018 11:05 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:46 pm
This is the way the Buddha said to do it. This way the monks have no control over the money, and can't just use it for whatever.
Where did he say to do it?
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Tue May 08, 2018 11:18 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:05 pm
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:46 pm
This is the way the Buddha said to do it. This way the monks have no control over the money, and can't just use it for whatever.
Where did he say to do it?
Nissagiya-Pacittiya 10 and 18 mostly. Sorry it's not very link-friendly. I'm sure theres an online version somewhere that i could just link to... but anyway page 187 to 196, and again from page 202 to 212.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... o/bmc1.pdf

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mikenz66
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Re: Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya?

Post by mikenz66 » Tue May 08, 2018 11:29 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:18 pm
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:05 pm
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 10:46 pm
This is the way the Buddha said to do it. This way the monks have no control over the money, and can't just use it for whatever.
Where did he say to do it?
Nissagiya-Pacittiya 10 and 18 mostly. Sorry it's not very link-friendly. I'm sure theres an online version somewhere that i could just link to... but anyway page 187 to 196, and again from page 202 to 212.
https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... o/bmc1.pdf
Here's the link-friendly version, James!

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-np
https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-np10/en/brahmali
https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-bu-vb-np18/en/brahmali

:heart:
Mike

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Tue May 08, 2018 11:45 pm

Thanks Mike. Ajahn Brahmali's version is good. I prefer Thanissaro's BMC for explaining and unpacking of the rules though.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya?

Post by rightviewftw » Tue May 08, 2018 11:59 pm

It seems to me like the rules do not allow for instructing to deposit funds with a steward but if money happens to be deposited due to chain of events and the persistent efforts on the part of the giver to deposit money with a steward for an allowable item to be retrieved at the right time and informs the Bhikkhu, the Bhikkhu is then allowed to retrieve the allowable otherwise the donation should be relinquished...
Am i interpereting it wrong?
Final ruling

‘If a monk takes, gets someone else to take, or consents to gold and silver being deposited for him, he commits an offense entailing relinquishment and confession.’”

Definitions

A: whoever … Monk: … The monk who has been given the full ordination by a complete Order through a formal procedure consisting of one motion and three announcements that is unchallengeable and fit to stand— this sort of monk is meant in this case.

Gold: the color of the Teacher is what is meant.

Silver: a kahāpaṇa coin, a copper māsaka coin, a wooden māsaka coin, a resin māsaka coin; whatever is used in commerce.

Takes: if he takes it himself, he commits an offense entailing relinquishment and confession.

Gets someone else to take: if he gets another to take it, he commits an offense entailing relinquishment and confession.

Consents to […] being deposited for him: if someone says, “Let this be for you,” and he consents to it being deposited for him, it becomes subject to relinquishment.

It should be relinquished in the midst of the Order. “And, monks, it should be relinquished in this way. After approaching the Order, that monk should put his upper robe over one shoulder and pay respect at the feet of the senior monks. He should then squat on his heels, put the palms of his hands together, and say, ‘Venerables, I have received money. It is to be relinquished. I relinquish it to the Order.’ ” After relinquishing it, he is to acknowledge the offense. The acknowledgment should be received by a competent and capable monk.

If a monastery attendant or a lay follower is available, you should tell him, “Look into this.” If he says, “What can I get you with this?”, you should not say, “Get this or that;” you should point out what is allowable: ghee, oil, honey, or sugar. If he makes a purchase and brings back what is allowable, everyone may enjoy it except the one who received the money.

If this is what happens, that is good. If not, you should tell him, “Discard this.” If he discards it, that is good. If he does not, a monk who has five qualities should be appointed as the money-discarder: one who is not swayed by desire, ill will, confusion, or fear, and who knows the meaning of discarding and not discarding.

“And, monks, this is how he should be appointed. First the monk should be asked and then a competent and capable monk should inform the Order:

‘Venerables, let the Order listen to me. If it seems appropriate to the Order, it should appoint monk so-and-so as the money-discarder. This is the motion.

Venerables, let the Order listen to me. The Order appoints monk so-and-so as the money-discarder. Any monk who agrees to appointing monk so-and-so as the money-discarder should remain silent. Any monk who does not agree should say so.

The Order has appointed monk so-and-so as the money-discarder. The Order approves and is therefore silent. I will remember it thus.’”

The appointed monk should drop it without taking note of the location. If he takes note of where he drops it, he commits an offense of wrong conduct.
Final ruling

‘If a king, a king’s employee, a brahmin, or a householder sends a robe fund for a monk by messenger, saying, ‘Buy a robe with this robe fund and give it to monk so-and-so,’ and the messenger goes to that monk and says, ‘Venerable, I have brought a robe fund for you; please accept it,’ then that monk should reply, ‘We don’t receive robe funds, but we do receive allowable robes at the right time.’ If that messenger says, ‘Is there anyone who provides services for you?’, the monk, if he needs a robe, should point out a monastery attendant or a lay follower and say, ‘He provides services for the monks.’ If the messenger instructs that service-provider and then returns to the monk and says, ‘Venerable, I have instructed the service-provider you pointed out; please approach him at the right time and he will give you a robe,’ then, if that monk needs a robe, he should approach that service-provider and prompt him and remind him two or three times, saying, ‘I need a robe.’ If he then gets a robe, that is good. If he does not get it, he should stand in silence for it at most six times. If he then gets a robe, that is good. If he makes any further effort and then gets a robe, he commits an offense entailing relinquishment and confession. If he does not get a robe, he should go to the owner of that robe fund, or send a message: ‘Sirs, that monk hasn’t received any benefit from the robe fund you sent for him. Please take action over what’s yours; let it not be lost.’ This is the proper procedure.’”

Definitions


For a monk: for the benefit of a monk; making a monk the object of consideration, one desires to give to him.

A king: whoever rules.

A king’s employee: whoever gets food and wages from a king.

A brahmin: a brahmin by birth.

A householder: anyone apart from a king, a king’s employee, and a brahmin.

A robe fund: money, gold, a pearl, or a gem.

With this robe fund: with that which is at one’s disposal.

Buy: having exchanged.

Give: donate.

And the messenger goes to that monk and says, “Venerable, I have brought a robe fund for you; please accept it,” then that monk should reply, “We don’t receive robe funds, but we do receive allowable robes at the right time.” If that messenger says, “Is there anyone who provides services for you?”, the monk, if he needs a robe, should point out a monastery attendant or a lay follower and say, “He provides services for the monks”: he should not say, “Give it to him/he’ll put it aside/he’ll do the exchange/he’ll buy it.”

If the messenger instructs that service-provider and then returns to the monk and says, “Venerable, I have instructed the service-provider you pointed out; please approach him at the right time and he will give you a robe,” then, if that monk needs a robe, he should approach that service-provider and prompt him and remind him two or three times, saying, “I need a robe”: he should not say, “Give me a robe/get me a robe/get a robe in exchange for me/buy me a robe.”

He should say it a second and a third time.

If he gets it, that is good. If he does not get it, [he should go there and] he should stand in silence for it: he should not sit down on a seat. He should not accept a gift. He should not give a teaching. If he is asked, “Why have you come?”, he should say, “Think about it.” If he sits down on a seat, or he accepts a gift, or he gives a teaching, he loses one allowance to stand.

He should stand a second and a third time. If he prompts four times, he can stand four times. If he prompts five times, he can stand twice. If he prompts six times, he cannot stand at all.

If he makes any further effort and the robe then appears, he commits an offense of wrong conduct for the effort. When he gets the robe, it becomes subject to relinquishment.

The robe should be relinquished to the Order, a group, or an individual. “And, monks, it should be relinquished in this way. … To be expanded as in Relinquishment 1, paragraphs 13–17, with appropriate substitutions. … ‘Venerables, this robe which I got after prompting more than three times and standing more than six times is to be relinquished. I relinquish it to the Order.’ … the Order should give … you should give … ‘I give this robe back to you.’”

If he does not get a robe, he should go to the owner of that robe fund, or send a message: ‘Sirs, that monk hasn’t received any benefit from the robe fund you sent for him. Please take action over what’s yours; let it not be lost.’

This is the proper procedure: this is the right method.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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JamesTheGiant
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Re: Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya?

Post by JamesTheGiant » Wed May 09, 2018 1:06 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:59 pm
It seems to me like the rules do not allow for instructing to deposit funds with a steward but if money happens to be deposited due to chain of events and the persistent efforts on the part of the giver to deposit money with a steward for an allowable item to be retrieved at the right time and informs the Bhikkhu, the Bhikkhu is then allowed to retrieve the allowable otherwise the donation should be relinquished...
Am i interpereting it wrong?
Yes, it's an offense for the monk to even say "I can't take that, so give that money to my steward".
But he can say things like "Monks can't recieve money, but you can donate it to the monastery in general, the donation box is over there."
Or the monk may remain silent when offered money, and a monk beside him can point out his steward, and explain.

In my experience, laypeople are so accustomed to monks receiving money, they become confused and offended when a good monk declines it! A sad state of affairs.

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rightviewftw
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Re: Isn't Asking for Money a Violation of Vinaya?

Post by rightviewftw » Thu May 10, 2018 12:37 am

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Wed May 09, 2018 1:06 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Tue May 08, 2018 11:59 pm
It seems to me like the rules do not allow for instructing to deposit funds with a steward but if money happens to be deposited due to chain of events and the persistent efforts on the part of the giver to deposit money with a steward for an allowable item to be retrieved at the right time and informs the Bhikkhu, the Bhikkhu is then allowed to retrieve the allowable otherwise the donation should be relinquished...
Am i interpereting it wrong?
Yes, it's an offense for the monk to even say "I can't take that, so give that money to my steward".
But he can say things like "Monks can't recieve money, but you can donate it to the monastery in general, the donation box is over there."
Or the monk may remain silent when offered money, and a monk beside him can point out his steward, and explain.

In my experience, laypeople are so accustomed to monks receiving money, they become confused and offended when a good monk declines it! A sad state of affairs.
As i read the rule one should only say that monks do not accept money. If the person then asks if there is a steward or a donation box, only then can one answer the question.

I've seen monks compromise other rules as well, supposedly to spare the feelings of the lay people.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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