Na Uyana or Mahamevnawa?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
BKh
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Joined: Mon May 30, 2011 12:43 am

Re: Na Uyana or Mahamevnawa?

Post by BKh » Tue May 29, 2018 6:21 pm

fornoxe wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:56 pm
(one is more intellectual than the another if I understood correctly)
Not sure which one you were referring to, but I wanted to point out that although learning Dhamma through the suttas is a feature of Mahamevnawa, they are by no means scholarly in the traditional sense. Of course, there are some monks who are, but that's not the norm. While monks are expected to read and learn the suttas there is no expectation that they learn Pali. Some monks do, which is a great resource.
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fornoxe
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Re: Na Uyana or Mahamevnawa?

Post by fornoxe » Tue May 29, 2018 8:46 pm

cheers bkh.

I started reading topic about visuddhi magga in that forum. Lot of questioN was created in myself.

In my own language as mean french,we dont have as english speakers a loot of books. I can read hardly english. It will become better asap. Thats mean visuddhi magga is quite important because...i can find it in french lol.

Anyway ; to be clear (for me and maybe another people)

We have school who study :
-only sutta from the bouddha (less scholarly i guess)
-some based on abhidhamma. Thats commentary.
-another on visuddhi magga. More scholar? Its sub commentary no? Not meta? Sorry for that stupid question.

most of monastery and school are based on visuddhi magga no?
can we find all this 3 types of learning (just theravadin sect survive in time most of them was destroy so...) in srilanka?

And hard question : in the practise (meditation) whats the difference? I guess all come from sutta. Or try to be.

Since 10 years we start to have translation from diggha nikaya. I will them asap.

Lot questions. I hope the topic master will not piss when i will see it.

cheers for everyone of this awesome forum!

fornoxe
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Re: Na Uyana or Mahamevnawa?

Post by fornoxe » Wed May 30, 2018 1:33 pm

I foun something interresting
Venerable Amathagavesi, a Sri Lankan meditation master, taught the 4 rupa-jhanas as a precursor to vipassana practice. He used Metta and Asubha meditations to subdue aversion and craving in preparation for jhana practice. The yogi's mind is prepared to a specific degree of tranquility which can easily generate a jhanic experience by the force of a wish. Then he trains in the Mastery of Jhana; i.e. to enter, maintain and come out of jhana as one wishes. The yogi can explore the falling away or addition of jhana factors as he changes between jhana. The initial required intensity of jhana can be attained at a two-week retreat. However, advanced practitioners are encouraged to develop jhana to full strength. Access is through mindfulness of breath. Venerable Amathagavesi passed away June 11, 2007 at the age of 85.
thats the technic for Mahamevnawa ?

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Chula
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Location: Sri Lanka

Re: Na Uyana or Mahamevnawa?

Post by Chula » Thu May 31, 2018 8:06 am

Sroberto wrote:
Mon May 28, 2018 2:34 pm
Chula wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 5:19 am
Sroberto wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:10 pm


Do you have any persoanl experience there or additional insights you could share?
I was just there for a week on an individual retreat. The schedule has 6h+ of optional group meditation where monks and lay residents practice together in the Bhavana Sala and walking paths outside. They also do more organized retreats that are structured similar to a Goenka retreat, but generally the two setups don't intermingle. Bhante Dhammajiva teaches the Mahasi method which is decent if you're relatively new to meditation imo. You can get meditation advice 3 times a week - I would say the general focus is anapanasati (breath meditation). Breakfast and lunch is offered and is fully lacto-vegetarian. There was a Russian who seemed to be a raw-foodist when I was there and they even to catered to him specifically too.

The accomodations can get a bit congested for lay residents (hostel-like feel with bunk beds), but the monk kutis are well setup from what I saw.

Feel free to ask any additional questions you might have. I also plan to revisit Na Uyana in a few weeks and I can try to give a comparison if you are interested.

Thanks so much. How many monks were there? What do they eat for protein there? Eggs or...?

As for Na Unya, i really have no interest in Abhidhamma so my question would be if i could focus on the suttas, 8F path, 4 NT, and meditation, especially Anapanasati and Metta.

Thanks again. Safe journey.
~35 monks. Quite a few samaneras and young monks. 28 acres but not a huge amount of free space to walk around.

Protein mostly from beans. I've been vegetarian all my life and protein being an issue is a complete myth. I actually skipped breakfast during my stay because I felt it was too much food (preference due to Thai Tradition).

Both places are influenced by the Burmese traditions. Meetirigala is probably less so (one of the senior monks there openly criticized the Pa Auk method in Na Uyana), but it is also Mahasi method influenced which still has some "kalapa" ideas from Abhidhamma.

Na Uyana follows the Pa Auk method which takes the Abhidhamma, commentaries and Visuddhimagga a bit too seriously imo. I got the impression however that the lower monastery monks were allowed to "do their own thing" if they could convince the head monk (Ariyananda Thero) that it was legitimate. The middle monastery where the schedule is more meditation focused (8h+) is more Pa Auk focused from what I heard (Nanasiri Thero is head there).

I will be visiting Na Uyana again in a week or so where I'll get to talk to the head monks there more - I'll update my impressions if there is any change.

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Chula
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Location: Sri Lanka

Re: Na Uyana or Mahamevnawa?

Post by Chula » Thu May 31, 2018 8:10 am

fornoxe wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:56 pm
Chula wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 5:19 am
Sroberto wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:10 pm


Do you have any persoanl experience there or additional insights you could share?
I was just there for a week on an individual retreat. The schedule has 6h+ of optional group meditation where monks and lay residents practice together in the Bhavana Sala and walking paths outside. They also do more organized retreats that are structured similar to a Goenka retreat, but generally the two setups don't intermingle. Bhante Dhammajiva teaches the Mahasi method which is decent if you're relatively new to meditation imo. You can get meditation advice 3 times a week - I would say the general focus is anapanasati (breath meditation). Breakfast and lunch is offered and is fully lacto-vegetarian. There was a Russian who seemed to be a raw-foodist when I was there and they even to catered to him specifically too.

The accomodations can get a bit congested for lay residents (hostel-like feel with bunk beds), but the monk kutis are well setup from what I saw.

Feel free to ask any additional questions you might have. I also plan to revisit Na Uyana in a few weeks and I can try to give a comparison if you are interested.
Did you go in another monastery and/or place with another perception of the dhamma?

I will go there (one way travel) in october. My plan is to stay as a lay people and doing several monastery and technoc to find the good one and staying there.

I have still question about sub theravada way in sri lanka. Like the exemple with this both monastery who practise in different way (one is more intellectual than the another if I understood correctly). But maybe we have (much?) More than 2 differents way of theravada.

what this the history of guldawa?

If u know somethings that great but I will discover there what happens :D

Cheers
I plan to go to Ellakanda forest monastery in Matara as well as a former Mahamevnawa monastery in Dompe (they supposedly broke off after the Mahamevnawa head monk decided the path to Nibbana was closed and the best we could hope for was deva-rebirth).

Not sure how foreigner-friendly both those places are though. From what I've heard of Ellakanda so far it seems quite unique in that it looks at the Thai Forest Tradition more favorably than the Burmese traditions. I can give more detail once I've made the visits and talked to some of the monks there.

Sroberto
Posts: 61
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Re: Na Uyana or Mahamevnawa?

Post by Sroberto » Thu May 31, 2018 6:33 pm

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Mon May 21, 2018 8:20 pm
When you go to Sri Lanka it should be okay to stay at both monasteries for a month, while you're a layperson. That way you can leave your final decision until after you've tried them both. The only difficulty would be extending your visa, but I understand that's no problem, just a day in Colombo filling in forms and getting stamps on passports.
Also keep in mind that when you are a monk, you can move between monasteries. Even as a junior monk you can go with the permission of your preceptor.
I thought you need to arrange your visa in advance of coming with the supporting documents of a particular monastery. ?

Sroberto
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Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:29 am

Re: Na Uyana or Mahamevnawa?

Post by Sroberto » Thu May 31, 2018 6:44 pm

Chula wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 8:10 am
fornoxe wrote:
Tue May 29, 2018 5:56 pm
Chula wrote:
Sun May 27, 2018 5:19 am


I was just there for a week on an individual retreat. The schedule has 6h+ of optional group meditation where monks and lay residents practice together in the Bhavana Sala and walking paths outside. They also do more organized retreats that are structured similar to a Goenka retreat, but generally the two setups don't intermingle. Bhante Dhammajiva teaches the Mahasi method which is decent if you're relatively new to meditation imo. You can get meditation advice 3 times a week - I would say the general focus is anapanasati (breath meditation). Breakfast and lunch is offered and is fully lacto-vegetarian. There was a Russian who seemed to be a raw-foodist when I was there and they even to catered to him specifically too.

The accomodations can get a bit congested for lay residents (hostel-like feel with bunk beds), but the monk kutis are well setup from what I saw.

Feel free to ask any additional questions you might have. I also plan to revisit Na Uyana in a few weeks and I can try to give a comparison if you are interested.
Did you go in another monastery and/or place with another perception of the dhamma?

I will go there (one way travel) in october. My plan is to stay as a lay people and doing several monastery and technoc to find the good one and staying there.

I have still question about sub theravada way in sri lanka. Like the exemple with this both monastery who practise in different way (one is more intellectual than the another if I understood correctly). But maybe we have (much?) More than 2 differents way of theravada.

what this the history of guldawa?

If u know somethings that great but I will discover there what happens :D

Cheers
I plan to go to Ellakanda forest monastery in Matara as well as a former Mahamevnawa monastery in Dompe (they supposedly broke off after the Mahamevnawa head monk decided the path to Nibbana was closed and the best we could hope for was deva-rebirth).

Not sure how foreigner-friendly both those places are though. From what I've heard of Ellakanda so far it seems quite unique in that it looks at the Thai Forest Tradition more favorably than the Burmese traditions. I can give more detail once I've made the visits and talked to some of the monks there.

Ok. Thanks for the updates. Hope you had a good Visakha Puja. Safe journey.

paul
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Re: Na Uyana or Mahamevnawa?

Post by paul » Thu May 31, 2018 7:16 pm

Chula wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 8:06 am


I've been vegetarian all my life and protein being an issue is a complete myth.

Na Uyana follows the Pa Auk method which takes the Abhidhamma, commentaries and Visuddhimagga a bit too seriously imo.

I will be visiting Na Uyana again in a week or so where I'll get to talk to the head monks there more - I'll update my impressions if there is any change.
This information on the current teaching is welcome as there are a succession of questioners wanting information. The statement about vegetarianism is too broad though, as malnutrition depends on the individual's choices and the food available at the monastery. The protein available in Sri Lanka is more limited than in western countries and so the vegetarian practitioner has to exercise care that they are getting enough, particularly if they are excluding meat in a monastery that does not have vegetarian fare.
Climate is also a consideration, and Na Uyana is preferrred being located in the drier intermediate zone.
https://www.researchgate.net/figure/Map ... _260252714

BKh
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Re: Na Uyana or Mahamevnawa?

Post by BKh » Thu May 31, 2018 7:31 pm

Sroberto wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 6:33 pm
I thought you need to arrange your visa in advance of coming with the supporting documents of a particular monastery. ?
Visa rules are constantly changing, but recently I was told that tourist visas can be extended to a point but cannot be converted into a resident visa. There is a limit to the extension of a tourist visa and to get a resident visa you have to leave, apply and reenter. Also the extending can be different for different countries. A Canadian can extend a month or two at a time. An American can extend it for six. But as I said, these things change frequently.

Also I was told there is a need for police background check from your home country to get the resident visa.
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WorldTraveller
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Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:07 am

Re: Na Uyana or Mahamevnawa?

Post by WorldTraveller » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:19 am

BKh wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 7:31 pm
Visa rules are constantly changing, but recently I was told that tourist visas can be extended to a point but cannot be converted into a resident visa. There is a limit to the extension of a tourist visa and to get a resident visa you have to leave, apply and reenter.
Also I was told there is a need for police background check from your home country to get the resident visa.
I too was told that the current Sri Lankan visa allowance is somewhat rigid. It can easily send a foreigner out of the country and when come to a residence visa, the sponsor has the veto power to cancel the visa even unfairly. So if one planning for a residence visa there, must be very cautious to pick a kind and reasonable sponsor. For example, one guy went to Na Uyana hoping for a longer stay and ordination. After some stay he decided, he better meditate on his own. But the venerable abbot told him to leave if not meditating based on his instructions and refused to sign for the visa extension. The guy left the country having no other choice or person to help.

Also, I was told that every foreigner needs a security clearance from the Sri Lankan Ministry of Defence at every visa renewal. For that, one must provide much detail of past activities and travels.

So, do your research, ask around from reliable sources, get to know few places rather that blindly decide is always better.

And, always have a backup plan for the unexpected! :)
“Kālāmas, do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a canonical tradition, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’”
- Buddha

WorldTraveller
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:07 am

Re: Na Uyana or Mahamevnawa?

Post by WorldTraveller » Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:39 am

Chula wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 8:10 am
...a former Mahamevnawa monastery in Dompe (they supposedly broke off after the Mahamevnawa head monk decided the path to Nibbana was closed and the best we could hope for was deva-rebirth).
Bhikkhus, if wanderers of other sects were to ask you thus: ‘Friends, do you lead the spiritual life under the ascetic Gotama for the sake of rebirth in the deva world?’ wouldn’t you be repelled, humiliated, and disgusted?

“Yes, Bhante.”

“Thus, bhikkhus, since you are repelled, humiliated, and disgusted with a celestial life span, celestial beauty, celestial happiness, celestial glory, and celestial authority, so much more then should you be repelled, humiliated, and disgusted with bodily misconduct, verbal misconduct, and mental misconduct.”

- AN 3.18
“Kālāmas, do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a canonical tradition, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’”
- Buddha

Sroberto
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Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:29 am

Re: Na Uyana or Mahamevnawa?

Post by Sroberto » Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:04 am

WorldTraveller wrote:
Tue Jun 05, 2018 10:19 am
BKh wrote:
Thu May 31, 2018 7:31 pm
Visa rules are constantly changing, but recently I was told that tourist visas can be extended to a point but cannot be converted into a resident visa. There is a limit to the extension of a tourist visa and to get a resident visa you have to leave, apply and reenter.
Also I was told there is a need for police background check from your home country to get the resident visa.
I too was told that the current Sri Lankan visa allowance is somewhat rigid. It can easily send a foreigner out of the country and when come to a residence visa, the sponsor has the veto power to cancel the visa even unfairly. So if one planning for a residence visa there, must be very cautious to pick a kind and reasonable sponsor. For example, one guy went to Na Uyana hoping for a longer stay and ordination. After some stay he decided, he better meditate on his own. But the venerable abbot told him to leave if not meditating based on his instructions and refused to sign for the visa extension. The guy left the country having no other choice or person to help.

Also, I was told that every foreigner needs a security clearance from the Sri Lankan Ministry of Defence at every visa renewal. For that, one must provide much detail of past activities and travels.

So, do your research, ask around from reliable sources, get to know few places rather that blindly decide is always better.

And, always have a backup plan for the unexpected! :)

Thank you for sharing your thoughts. There is no question about the love - hate aspect towards foreigners in SE Asia. Everything can become arbitrary in an instant. Myanmar and Thailand have both expelled ALL foreigners legally living in their countries in the past. A bigger worry I have is when China itching to start a war with somebody, anybody, it could be Vietnam, Taiwan, Pbillipines, USA, will it spill over to Sri Lanka? Countries are forced to take sides and that means expulsions of foreigners. Anything can happen. But that is the nature of samsara, correct?.

About the novice expelled from Na Uyana, it seems reasonable to me that if someome wishes to live under a monastery's roof but not follow its teachings, that they would be shown the door. It is a guest's duty to respect the host's requirements. Which reconfirms your advice to do one's homework, first.

WorldTraveller
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Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:07 am

Re: Na Uyana or Mahamevnawa?

Post by WorldTraveller » Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:48 am

Sroberto wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:04 am
About the novice expelled from Na Uyana, it seems reasonable to me that if someome wishes to live under a monastery's roof but not follow its teachings, that they would be shown the door. It is a guest's duty to respect the host's requirements. Which reconfirms your advice to do one's homework, first.
I checked, and the Sri Lankan constitution has the fundamental right of Freedom of thought, conscience and religion in it.
Every person is entitled to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, including the freedom to have or to adopt a religion or belief of his choice
In the above mentioned recent incident, the abbot kicked the meditator out because he found some inconsistencies between the Pa-Auk method and the abbot's version of it, but not that the meditator refused the Buddha or the Path. I was told that has happened to many other locals/foreigners in the past. This might give you more info.
“Kālāmas, do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a canonical tradition, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’”
- Buddha

Sroberto
Posts: 61
Joined: Sun Apr 22, 2018 2:29 am

Re: Na Uyana or Mahamevnawa?

Post by Sroberto » Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:21 pm

WorldTraveller wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 11:48 am
Sroberto wrote:
Wed Jun 06, 2018 11:04 am
About the novice expelled from Na Uyana, it seems reasonable to me that if someome wishes to live under a monastery's roof but not follow its teachings, that they would be shown the door. It is a guest's duty to respect the host's requirements. Which reconfirms your advice to do one's homework, first.
I checked, and the Sri Lankan constitution has the fundamental right of Freedom of thought, conscience and religion in it.
Every person is entitled to freedom of thought, conscience and religion, including the freedom to have or to adopt a religion or belief of his choice
In the above mentioned recent incident, the abbot kicked the meditator out because he found some inconsistencies between the Pa-Auk method and the abbot's version of it, but not that the meditator refused the Buddha or the Path. I was told that has happened to many other locals/foreigners in the past. This might give you more info.

The constitution doesn't give someone the right to live in someone else's monastery. That seems fairly obvious. It is the abbot's monastery until it is not.

The burning robes was 129 pages of nevative energy. A good example of clinging to self.

In the end everyone decides for themself. Bitterness is optional.

WorldTraveller
Posts: 112
Joined: Sun Dec 20, 2015 11:07 am

Re: Na Uyana or Mahamevnawa?

Post by WorldTraveller » Fri Jun 08, 2018 12:57 am

Sroberto wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:21 pm
The constitution doesn't give someone the right to live in someone else's monastery. That seems fairly obvious. It is the abbot's monastery until it is not.
A monastery is not a private fiefdom of an abbot. It’s a place belongs to the Sangha, and obviously not immune from the country's law and the constitution. Although the monks often behave like they are an elite cult or a hidden government. Actually the position of an executive abbot is a later development but not something allowed by the Buddha.
When Devadatta requested the Lord to hand over the Sangha to him so that he will lead them, the Lord replied: “I, Devadatta, would not hand over the Sangha even to Sāriputta and Moggallāna. How then could I to you, a wretched one to be vomited like spittle?”
On his last days, the Lord said to Ānanda: “It may be that you will think: ‘The Teacher's instruction has ceased, now we have no teacher!’ It should not be seen like this, Ānanda, for what I have taught and explained to you as Dhamma and discipline will, at my passing, be your teacher.”

If you read MN 108, can see how the Sangha work without control freak abbots/teachers even after the Buddha’s passing away.

Finally, this is from Sallekha Sutta:
“Cunda, that one who is himself sinking in the mud should pull out another who is sinking in the mud is impossible. That one who is himself untamed, undisciplined, [with defilements] unextinguished, should tame another, discipline him, and help extinguish [his defilements] is impossible.”
Sroberto wrote:
Thu Jun 07, 2018 9:21 pm
The burning robes was 129 pages of nevative energy. A good example of clinging to self.

In the end everyone decides for themself. Bitterness is optional.
Then the five books of Vinaya are "The Great Compendium of Fault finding & Negativity!"
“Kālāmas, do not go by oral tradition, by lineage of teaching, by hearsay, by a canonical tradition, by logical reasoning, by inferential reasoning, by reasoned cogitation, by the acceptance of a view after pondering it, by the seeming competence of a speaker, or because you think: ‘The ascetic is our guru.’”
- Buddha

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