Bhikkhunis is not Aj Brahm's project.

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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pilgrim
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Re: Bhikkhunis is not Aj Brahm's project.

Post by pilgrim » Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:49 am

Zom wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:17 pm
The Buddha allowed for bhikkhunīs to be ordained by bhikkhus.
With the presense of 4 another legitimate bhikkhunis, yes. Unfortunately, there are none today.
Buddhists using the tenets of their religion against their own interests. Sometimes, we are indeed our own worst enemy.

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robertk
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Re: Bhikkhunis is not Aj Brahm's project.

Post by robertk » Tue Mar 27, 2018 4:55 am

pilgrim wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 12:49 am
Zom wrote:
Mon Mar 26, 2018 12:17 pm
The Buddha allowed for bhikkhunīs to be ordained by bhikkhus.
With the presense of 4 another legitimate bhikkhunis, yes. Unfortunately, there are none today.
Buddhists using the tenets of their religion against their own interests. Sometimes, we are indeed our own worst enemy.
The vinaya was laid down by the Buddha and even the arahats never thought to change it:


Culavagga:
Then the venerable Ânanda spake thus to the Thera Bhikkhus: 'The Blessed One, Sirs, at the time of his passing away, spake thus to me "When I am gone, Ânanda, let the Sangha, if it should so wish, revoke all the lesser and minor precepts."'

'Did you then, venerable Ânanda, ask the Blessed One which were the lesser and minor precepts?'

'No, Sirs.'

Some Theras then said that all the rules save the four Pârâgikas; others that all save those and the thirteen Samghâdisesas; others that all save those and the two Aniyatas; others that all save those and the thirty Nissaggiyas; others that all save those and the ninety-two Pâkittiyas; others that all save those and the four Pâtidesaniyas were lesser and minor precepts.

Then the venerable Mahâ Kassapa laid a resolution before the Sangha: 'Let the venerable Sangha hear me. There are certain of our precepts which relate to matters in which the laity are concerned. Now the laity know of us that "such and such things are proper for you Samanas who are Sakyaputtiyas, and such and such things are not." If we were to revoke the lesser and minor precepts, it will be said to us: "A set of precepts was laid down for his disciples by the Samana Gotama to endure until the smoke should rise from his funeral pyre. So long as their teacher remained with these men, so long did they train themselves in the precepts. Since their teacher has passed away from them, no longer do they now train themselves in the precepts.'

'If the time seems meet to the Sangha, not ordaining what has not been ordained, and not revoking what has been ordained, let it take upon itself and ever direct itself in the precepts according as they have been laid down. This is the resolution.

'Let the venerable Sangha hear me. [These things being so] the Sangha takes upon itself the precepts according as they have been laid down. Whosoever of the venerable ones approves thereof, let him keep silence. Whosoever approves not thereof, let him speak. The Sangha has taken upon itself the precepts according as they were laid down. Therefore does it keep silence. Thus do I understand.'

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pilgrim
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Re: Bhikkhunis is not Aj Brahm's project.

Post by pilgrim » Tue Mar 27, 2018 7:49 am

We don't change it but when laid out it is clear there are several interpretive options. But we choose the most negative and conservative option so that we shoot ourselves in the foot. Thankfully, there are those who are strong enough to follow thru with options that are more in line with the Buddha's intentions.

There isn't any need to explore what these options are as they have been deliberated at length.

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Zom
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Re: Bhikkhunis is not Aj Brahm's project.

Post by Zom » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:06 am

In China, Bhikkhunis never died out. The lineage continued uninterrupted.
Yes, but they are not theravadin nuns. Their Dhamma is totally different and they all have wrong views.
Thankfully, there are those who are strong enough to follow thru with options that are more in line with the Buddha's intentions.
Those who established Thilasin and Maechi orders indeed followed Buddha's intention, unlike modern feminists, who try to make one out of Buddha himself.
There isn't any need to explore what these options are as they have been deliberated at length.
120 page deliberation from the best Thai scholar monk: http://www.watnyanaves.net/uploads/File ... seeger.pdf

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Re: Bhikkhunis is not Aj Brahm's project.

Post by pilgrim » Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:10 pm

Zom wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:06 am

Yes, but they are not theravadin nuns. Their Dhamma is totally different and they all have wrong views.
Ordination lineage is not dependent on views of beliefs . Depending who is the arbitrator of Right Views, that would either disqualify some , most or all Theravada monks except for arahants. Would you say Dhammakaya monks or even Devadatta as not monks?
Zom wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:06 am
Those who established Thilasin and Maechi orders indeed followed Buddha's intention, unlike modern feminists, who try to make one out of Buddha himself.
Mae chis are considered lay people, even by monks and themselves. They are no different from you taking on more precepts.

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Re: Bhikkhunis is not Aj Brahm's project.

Post by cjmacie » Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:39 am

mikenz66 wrote:
Sun Mar 25, 2018 9:10 am
...
I think James is spot on. But I don't think it's necessarily a deliberate Orietalism conspiracy. It's what people are familiar with, are able to easily inteact with, and therefore what they notice. That's why a lot of westerners think that the Ajahn Chah monasteries are the Thai forest tradition.
...
That's a good point that should be recognized more widely -- the Thai Forest (Than-Geoff says "wilderness" is more accurate) Tradition is not led by Ajahn Chah. He just happened to be a good teacher who took on many of the Western hippie-age pilgrims back in the mid 20th-century. His teaching style was very simple, IMO allowing various of those students, since become leading "gurus" of modernist Western Buddhism, to read a lot of romanticism (again, in Than-Geoff's sense) into the teaching and claim it as their lineage.

But he was not the only influence on the West. Than-Geoff (Ajahn or Bhikkhu Thanissaro) trained with, received transmission so to speak from on Ajahn Fuang, student of Ajahn Lee, and further back to Ajahn Mun. Than-Geoff has translated a lot of those Forest Ajahns' Thai writings into English, including some works of Ajahn Chah.

In fact, here's a weekend of teaching by TG on "The Thai Forest Masters":
https://www.audiodharma.org/series/16/talk/5996/

Also, I think Ajahn Brahms was "excommunicated" by some sort of official Thai central Buddhist authority, not the Ajahn Chah lineage per se.

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Zom
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Re: Bhikkhunis is not Aj Brahm's project.

Post by Zom » Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:59 pm

Ordination lineage is not dependent on views of beliefs .
Monks who don't have agreement about Dhamma and/or Vinaya can't hold Uposatha together, not to speak about holding such important ceremonies as ordaining.
Would you say Dhammakaya monks or even Devadatta as not monks?
3 monks with fallen Devatta (or any other monk with parajika) don't have right to ordain new monk. If they do so, new monk is illegitimate and must reordain to be a bhikkhu. Dhammakaya monks ordain their own monks. Just like vajrayana monks ordain their own.
Mae chis are considered lay people, even by monks and themselves. They are no different from you taking on more precepts.
Considered - that is the word here. All this "bhikkhuni" theme is about "status", not about living a certain way of life. Mae chis, Thilashin, Siladharas - they all live like true renunciates and have all conditions to do so. However, those, who want "status" won't join them, ofc... This is called feminism, not Buddhism.

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Re: Bhikkhunis is not Aj Brahm's project.

Post by JamesTheGiant » Wed Mar 28, 2018 7:24 pm

Sorry, this is off topic...
cjmacie wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 8:39 am
Also, I think Ajahn Brahms was "excommunicated" by some sort of official Thai central Buddhist authority, not the Ajahn Chah lineage per se.
I can clarify that. At a meeting of Ajahn Chah branch monastery Ajahns from around Thailand and the world, they argued and discussed, and then voted not to be in association with Ajahn Brahm any more. That's it. There is a transcription of the meeting online somewhere, it makes for interesting reading for people curious about the internal politics of the Ajahn Chah organization.
However, in the eyes of the Thai authorities, he is still a full bhikkhu, with Chao Khun status given to him by the King, and is an Upachaya, able to give ordinations under the Thai system.
It's just the Ajahn Chah organisation who have decided he's not welcome at their monasteries any more. Those Ajahns who are still friends with him and visit him get criticised sometimes, but it's not a huge problem for Ajahn Chah ajahns to come to Ajahn Brahm's monastery and lead a retreat. Ajahn Khema from Sydney does it a couple of times a year.
Sorry for the off-topic :focus:

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Zom
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Re: Bhikkhunis is not Aj Brahm's project.

Post by Zom » Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:50 pm

with Chao Khun status given to him by the King, and is an Upachaya
I've heard (read somewhere back in 2009) he was forbidden to ordain monks and lost this his status.

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pilgrim
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Re: Bhikkhunis is not Aj Brahm's project.

Post by pilgrim » Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:11 am

Zom wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 2:59 pm

Monks who don't have agreement about Dhamma and/or Vinaya can't hold Uposatha together, not to speak about holding such important ceremonies as ordaining.
That would be a problem for the Mahayana nuns which Ajahn Sumedho helped to ordain in Hsuan Hua's monastery.
viewtopic.php?t=11116

Incidentally, Ajahn Passano also participated in the 2010 Theravada bhikkhuni ordination in California, but because the women are not in the Thai Forest tradition, nobody objects to their ordination. Kind of undermines all these arguments against the validity of bhikkhuni ordinations .

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Re: Bhikkhunis is not Aj Brahm's project.

Post by JamesTheGiant » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:01 am

Zom wrote:
Wed Mar 28, 2018 9:50 pm
with Chao Khun status given to him by the King, and is an Upachaya
I've heard (read somewhere back in 2009) he was forbidden to ordain monks and lost this his status.
No. I remember at the time, there was a Thai monk quoted in the Bangkok Post newspaper saying that, but he was just talking angry nonsense, venting maybe. If the Supreme Sangha Council of Thailand had become involved that would have been trouble, but they didn't. And even if they had, that Supreme Council has no power outside of Thailand.

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Re: Bhikkhunis is not Aj Brahm's project.

Post by JamesTheGiant » Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:02 am

pilgrim wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:11 am
Incidentally, Ajahn Passano also participated in the 2010 Theravada bhikkhuni ordination in California, but because the women are not in the Thai Forest tradition, nobody objects to their ordination. Kind of undermines all these arguments against the validity of bhikkhuni ordinations .
:rolleye: Bizarre!

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Re: Bhikkhunis is not Aj Brahm's project.

Post by DooDoot » Thu Mar 29, 2018 4:54 am

Zom wrote:
Tue Mar 27, 2018 11:06 am
Yes, but they are not theravadin nuns. Their Dhamma is totally different and they all have wrong views.
But Chinese Agama are 'Early Buddhist texts' ('EBTs') & are superior to the Pali texts according to.... ;)
pilgrim wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:11 am
Incidentally, Ajahn Passano also participated in the 2010 Theravada bhikkhuni ordination in California, but because the women are not in the Thai Forest tradition, nobody objects to their ordination. Kind of undermines all these arguments against the validity of bhikkhuni ordinations .
I imagine Ajahn Passano's presence was not relevant to any question of the validity of the ordinations given Ajahn Passano is not the Buddha.
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 1:02 am
Bizarre!
I imagine Ajahn Passano's presence was merely a gesture of personal goodwill and unrelated to the structure & burdens of Thai monasticism, which is probably currently unable to accommodate large scale bhikkhuni ordination.

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robertk
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Re: Bhikkhunis is not Aj Brahm's project.

Post by robertk » Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:29 am

pilgrim wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 12:11 am
Incidentally, Ajahn Passano also participated in the 2010 Theravada bhikkhuni ordination in California, but because the women are not in the Thai Forest tradition, nobody objects to their ordination. Kind of undermines all these arguments against the validity of bhikkhuni ordinations .
How does it undermine the arguments against the validity of bhikkuni ordinations?

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pilgrim
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Re: Bhikkhunis is not Aj Brahm's project.

Post by pilgrim » Thu Mar 29, 2018 7:26 am

robertk wrote:
Thu Mar 29, 2018 5:29 am

How does it undermine the arguments against the validity of bhikkuni ordinations?
OK, I take that back as it wasn't worded correctly. What I meant was that the WPN sangha refused to recognise the validity of the Perth bhikkhuni ordinations for whatever reason. But it cannot be on the validity of the bhikkhuni ordinations as this isn't an issue with Aj Passano's participation in the 2010 bhikkhuni ordination.

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