Bhikkhunis is not Aj Brahm's project.

[pilgrim]

"VC: Some people call you a ‘renegade monk’ because they think that you brought something back that is going against tradition. How do you see yourself in this- as a renegade or…?" (https://anukampaproject.org/…/on-bhikkh ... gades-mona…/)

This question was put to Ajahn Brahm in an interview conducted by the Anukampa Bhikkhuni project. I think people should stop crediting Aj Brahm for the bhikkhuni ordination. Bhikkhunis were already ordained in India in 1996 more than a decade before Aj Brahm involved himself in this. There are now hundreds of bhikkhunis, mostly ordained in Asia. The number that Aj Brahm ordained (perhaps around 10?) is a tiny fraction of that. I appreciate Aj Brahm's support for this movement but please, he did not start it, he did not bring it back and in terms of numbers, he did not play a significant role in it. The Bhikkhuni lineage did not start in Perth and Aj Brahm should make this clear everytime the subject is raised.

If anyone is to be credited with this historical episode, it should be Bhikkhuni Kusuma of Sri Lanka and Ranjani De Silva who started Sakyadhita. Research on this was already done before the decision was taken to proceed with bhikkhuni ordination by these persons and the lineage does not pivot on the writings of Aj Brahm, Aj Sujato or Ven Analayo.
http://present.bhikkhuni.net/bhikkhuni-kusuma/

[Idappaccayata]

I can't say I'm surprised. They seem to like to take credit for its revival. Even if, not blatantly.

You should post this is sutta central.

[Meezer77]

I think it's great that nuns are given the opportunity to ordain. I don't understand why there is such a public hoo ha about it though. Why was there so much opposition to it? Come to think about it you don't hear much from the opposition or so it seems.

[JamesTheGiant]

He is famous for doing it because it was done in the Ajahn Chah lineage, which is the only lineage of Theravada that English-speaking-people care about. Sure it was done before in other places, but no white people cared about it because it was a bunch of Thai women or Sri Lankan women getting ordained in hot poor countries. But when white women were discriminated against, boom! It came to first-world view.

[DooDoot]

He is famous for doing it because it was done in the Ajahn Chah lineage, which is the only lineage of Theravada that English-speaking-people care about.

He was expelled from the Ajahn Chah lineage; i.e., he chose to leave the Ajahn Chah lineage. Ajahn Chah never professed support for female ordination.

As this drama unfolded, it became increasingly clear that the real issue was not really the nuns. If the welfare of the four women involved was the primary concern, Ajahn Brahm could have easily used his influence to arrange a bhikkhuni ordination elsewhere with other non-Ajahn Chah monks. That would have achieved their aim of full ordination. It could have all happened independent of the Ajahn Chah Sangha, and it would not have resulted in waves of protest. The progress within the mainstream towards full acceptance could have continued, and monks like myself would have been happy to support and recognise the ordination.

If the ordination had been independent of Bodhinyana Monastery, Ajahn Brahm would not have been able to take credit for it. Although I cannot know the motivations behind their actions, many people I have spoken to think that what was important to Ajahns Brahm and Sujato was that they go down in history as the ones who revived the bhikkhuni order in the Theravada tradition. This is only speculation, but if this is true, then in some ways the nuns themselves seemed to have been used as pawns in this greater ambition.

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... rXceC5uYkI

Australian lady who ordained in Sri Lanka (Published on Apr 30, 2008).

... but no white people cared about it because it was a bunch of Thai women or Sri Lankan women getting ordained in hot poor countries. But when white women were discriminated against, boom!

First the Thai monks were accused of misogyny and now the Sri Lankan bhikkhunis seem to be accused of racism. I recall the AB ordination included two non-white women. Also, when I lived in a monastery, it was in one of these (although I did live in more primitive thatch for a while). Sri Lanka & Thailand are not exactly so poor to deprive bhikkhus & bhikkhunis of food & hot is obviously better for bhikkhus & bhikkhunis (unless they wish to live in modern luxury).



Btw, apart from say hip San Francisco, which community is feeding the bhikkhuni in the West?

Santi’s 2017 Kathina celebrations were blessed by good weather and the good will and generosity of many who turned out for the occasion – approx. 250-300 people attended. Most were from the Cambodian community in Canley Vale, amongst whom were Mr & Mrs Kim Kou who instigated and organized the Kathina offering this year. They made a tremendous effort and raised significant support for Santi Monastery, and everyone attending seemed to enjoy the day’s festivities. Special robes and support were also offered by Khun Montila and friends from the Thai community, and as always, the occasion was well supported by Santi’s Sri Lankan contingent, who come and help out every year to prepare for this ceremonious day and gathering of many supporters.

http://santifm.org/santi/2017/11/13/kathina/

[pilgrim]

He was expelled from the Ajahn Chah lineage; i.e., he chose to leave the Ajahn Chah lineage. Ajahn Chah never professed support for female ordination.

He is no longer in the loosely defined Ajahn Chah club but you can't really expel someone from a lineage as it is a historical fact but

Aj Brahm and Sujato are the spokespersons for the bhikkhunis in the English speaking world but really, the lineage would be little affected with or without their involvement. And the "English Buddhist media" should take cognizance of this.

[User1249x]

An hour and a half long talk on the revival of the Bhikkhuni Sangha by Venerable Kusuma Bhikkhuni

[Lucas Oliveira]

Ajahn Brahm Has Resigned From the BSWA

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/aj ... -bswa/8884

https://bswa.org/ajahn-brahm-resigns/

[Meezer77]

Ajahn Brahm Has Resigned From the BSWA

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/aj ... -bswa/8884

https://bswa.org/ajahn-brahm-resigns/

Hoo ha

[dharmacorps]

Here is the quote from the website with AB's answer.


VC: Some people call you a ‘renegade monk’ because they think that you brought something back that is going against tradition. How do you see yourself in this- as a renegade or…?


AB: I was with Ajahn Chah when there was a monk sent from Bangkok to investigate him, because there were complaints about Ajahn Chah for being… (pauses) a renegade. What he was doing was keeping some of the Vinaya rules that were embarrassing people in Bangkok, that is: to not accept or receive any money. When anybody looks at the tradition they will find I’m a very traditional monk. Because I am very traditional and some of those monks have become very lax, they will dismiss you as a renegade. I do recall, even in the Franciscan tradition (and St Francis was also someone who went on alms), that during his lifetime he was invited by the Vatican, by the Pope, for a big feast. He took one look at the feast and went out on alms round to get some scraps from poor people and he gave those scraps to the Cardinal and to the Pope to show what a real mendicant should be like. St Francis was a ‘renegade.’ So, sometimes we do need those so-called renegades: The Martin Luther’s, the Rosa Parks’ (and Rosa Parks was a Buddhist when she passed away). These people were regarded as renegades because they saw some inequality- some terrible things, going against fundamental human rights and fairness- and they stood up. But they were strong enough to resist that (label) and became icons of freedom.

[Lucas Oliveira]

Verse 227. There Is No One Who Is Not Blamed

An ancient saying, Atula,
not only said today -
‘They are blamed who silent sit,
who often speak they too are blamed,
and blamed are they of measured speech’ -
there’s none in the world unblamed.

Explanation: O’ Atula, This has been said in the olden days too - it is not just for today. They blame the person who remains silent. They find fault with the person who talks too much. Even with the individual who speaks in moderation, they find fault. In this world there is no one who is not blamed.

http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/d_anger.htm

[dylanj]

I agree. I think this comes from sort of Orientalism where the advances made by Asians in traditional Buddhist communities are ignored & the role of western buddhists magnified.

https://snfwrenms.wordpress.com/2011/09 ... e-revived/

Here's a pro-bhikkuṇī argument from a Burmese monk in 1949.

[dylanj]

I can't say I'm surprised. They seem to like to take credit for its revival. Even if, not blatantly.

You should post this is sutta central.

[mikenz66]

He is famous for doing it because it was done in the Ajahn Chah lineage, which is the only lineage of Theravada that English-speaking-people care about. Sure it was done before in other places, but no white people cared about it because it was a bunch of Thai women or Sri Lankan women getting ordained in hot poor countries. But when white women were discriminated against, boom! It came to first-world view.

I think this comes from sort of Orientalism where the advances made by Asians in traditional Buddhist communities are ignored & the role of western buddhists magnified.

I think James is spot on. But I don't think it's necessarily a deliberate Orietalism conspiracy. It's what people are familiar with, are able to easily inteact with, and therefore what they notice. That's why a lot of westerners think that the Ajahn Chah monasteries are the Thai forest tradition.

I don't know enough about the politics to judge whether AB's efforts are helping or hindering the Asian Bhikkhuni's, or whether he is playing up his role, and making use of his fame, in order to put pressure on in certain places. I would presume that he is doing what he thinks will be most effective.


Mike

[dylanj]

He is famous for doing it because it was done in the Ajahn Chah lineage, which is the only lineage of Theravada that English-speaking-people care about. Sure it was done before in other places, but no white people cared about it because it was a bunch of Thai women or Sri Lankan women getting ordained in hot poor countries. But when white women were discriminated against, boom! It came to first-world view.

I think this comes from sort of Orientalism where the advances made by Asians in traditional Buddhist communities are ignored & the role of western buddhists magnified.

I think James is spot on. But I don't think it's necessarily a deliberate Orietalism conspiracy. It's what people are familiar with, are able to easily inteact with, and therefore what they notice. That's why a lot of westerners think that the Ajahn Chah monasteries are the Thai forest tradition.


Mike

I didn't say it was deliberate nor do I think that. Orientalism is mostly a subconscious phenomenon no?