Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
SarathW
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:23 am

not acknowledgeing the systemic problems
In your opinion what are the systemic problems faced by nuns?
Is it not enough housing?
I can't recall any systemic problems except all seem trivial to me.

:shrug:
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DooDoot
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:42 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:49 am
Perhaps something you are not aware is that many Western Buddhist monasteries are supported by expatriate Sri Lankans.
Maybe. But my recollection is AB refuted the benefaction of the Thai Sangha & People, claiming he raised his own money (which I recall he later did, when Ajahn Jagaro disrobed, by giving talks about reincarnation to rich Chinese Malaysians & Singaporeans). I also recall AS declared himself an 'independent monk'. The bhikkhuni issue all those years ago was a classic divide-&-conquer Cultural Marxist strategy, where the perpetrators claimed to be the victim; such as in this ridiculous video; where the Thai Sangha was accused of having "hatred" & other evil qualities.



I personally have no issues discerning virtue from sin. The Buddha taught to be grateful for the smallest favour or gift. If your Buddhism was learned in Thailand, you should be grateful to the Thai People. As Buddhists, we are always grateful to our benefactors.

As a Buddhist, you must respect which ever culture, society or home you visit. If I posted on SC, I would deliberately attempt to respect their culture. Otherwise, I would not post there. Particularly, I would not post to make the monks & nuns look bad because the monks & nuns are the leaders of that group. In my opinion, your attacking the leaders of that group; on their website; is not virtuous conduct. You are behaving like Jesus; who falsely claimed the synagogue was his fathers house; and turned over the tables of the money-changers.



The synagogue did not belong to Jesus or his Father. The synagogue belonged to those Jews who built & financed it. Ajahn Chah said the Dhamma is our True Home (rather than a synagogue or website).
What's important is that we should do as the Lord Buddha taught and build our own home, building it by the method that I've been explaining to you. Build your home. Let go. Let go until the mind reaches the peace that is free from advancing, free from retreating and free from stopping still. Pleasure is not our home, pain is not our home. Pleasure and pain both decline and pass away.

Ajahn Chah https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... bl111.html
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mikenz66
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:34 pm

SarathW wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:23 am
not acknowledgeing the systemic problems
In your opinion what are the systemic problems faced by nuns?
Is it not enough housing?
I can't recall any systemic problems except all seem trivial to me.

:shrug:
OK, fair enough. That is your impression. It all seems trivial.

I have a completely different impression, from reading and listening to accounts on SC and other places on the internet, and from meeting a very small number of nuns and bhikkhunis (that small number is one of the problems).

I have explained my position here, and on SC. If you still think that the concerns are all trivial I don't see any point in saying any more.

:heart:
Mike

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by befriend » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:09 am

Ordination has everything to do with arahantship. Lay people cannot become fully enlightened without ordaining within seven days or they die.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SDC » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:49 am

Back.

To.

Topic.

(Off topic content removed)

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Polar Bear
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by Polar Bear » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:26 am

I think the Alliance for Bhikkhunis is obviously a wholesome and helpful organization. I think it would be accurate to say that there are well over half a million theravadin bhikkhus on earth and less than 5,000 theravadin bhikkhunis. If we're interested in a complete fourfold assembly then it seems obvious that we should support bhikkhunis even more than bhikkhus in the same way that a species conservationist would give precedence to supporting asiatic lions over supporting indian leopards.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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robertk
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by robertk » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:13 am

In my opinion, as the Bhikkuni order became extinct centuries ago, and at least in Theravada cannot be resuscitated, your analogy would be better if you were suggesting funds be devoted to reviving the dodo. Or putting funds and support into assisting meichii.

There will be again bhikkhuni( and possibly Dodo too) in the far off future during the sasana of the next Buddha.

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by Polar Bear » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:07 am

robertk wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:13 am
In my opinion, as the Bhikkuni order became extinct centuries ago, and at least in Theravada cannot be resuscitated, your analogy would be better if you were suggesting funds be devoted to reviving the dodo. Or putting funds and support into assisting meichii.

There will be again bhikkhuni( and possibly Dodo too) in the far off future during the sasana of the next Buddha.
(Edit: deleted american lion bit)

I follow the reasoning of Bhikkhu Anālayo on this matter so I believe the bhikkhuni lineage has been successfully revived. I donated a hundred bucks to the Alliance for Bhikkhunis earlier today. May it be of use to some bhikkhunis in their quest to realize the unexcelled sublime state of peace, Nibbana!

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by befriend » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:03 pm

That's an unwholesome extremist view the Buddhas teachings his actually words are in this day an age recorded so well we can with confidence say this is the Buddhas Dhamma Buddha might as well still be alive his teachings are spreading to the Americas and Africa what harm is there in bhikkhuni ordination when Buddhas legacy is on the precipice of expanding more than it ever has in history.
Take care of mindfulness and mindfulness will take care of you.

SarathW
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:07 am

well still be alive his teachings are spreading to the Americas and Africa what harm is there in bhikkhuni ordination when Buddha's legacy is on the precipice of expanding more than it ever has in history.
I am a supporter of the Bhikkhuni ordination.
What I am not supporting is the distortion of the Vinaya by some nuns.
See the following video, Bhante Sujato is cherry picking the Vinaya code.
One point he said that he does not believe the Vinaya code to support his point and the next he uses the Vinaya to support another point.
It appears Bhante Sujato is the attorney for the Bhikkunis who does not want to follow the Vinaya code.
In another instance he says Buddha impose Garudhamm to combat the pride of Mahaprajapati Gotami and his opinion it applies only to her, not to the Bhikkunis.
It is hilarious because Buddha imposes something in Vinaya code just to cover one person.

“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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mikenz66
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by mikenz66 » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:07 am

SarathW wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:07 am
I am a supporter of the Bhikkhuni ordination.
What I am not supporting is the distortion of the Vinaya by some nuns.
See the following video, Bhante Sujato is cherry picking the Vinaya code.
One point he said that he does not believe the Vinaya code to support his point and the next he uses the Vinaya to support another point.
...
Well, of course, it is possible to argue (as Robert and Zom have already in this thread) that the (Pali-Theravada-Vinaya) Bhikkhuni ordination is invalid because the lineage died out.

Those who support (Theravada) Bhikkhuni ordination have a different opinion on ordination requirements, so they are already in some disagreement with the Theravada orthodoxy. Of course, if one considers oneself an "Early Buddhist Text" follower, then there is no particular reason to favour the Pali Theravada Vinaya lineage over the Dharmaguptaka lineage of the Chinese Mahayana Bhikshunis.

It seems to me that any sort of support for Bhikkhunis could be argued to be cherry picking, especially by those who place high importance on the Theravada commentaries and tradition. The more traditional would argue that the Dharmaguptaka are a schismatic sect, so the ordinations are invalid.

I don't personally agree with that point of view. I support the ordination of Bhikkhunis, and I feel priviledged to have had a chance to meet a few of them, and I am also pleased to have met a (larger) number of Bhikshunis. However, I think that it is important to acknowledge that the arguments around the technical validity of the Theravada Bhikkhuni ordinations is not a simple matter.

:heart:
Mike

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DooDoot
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:41 am

polarbear101 wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:26 am
I think it would be accurate to say that there are well over half a million theravadin bhikkhus on earth and less than 5,000 theravadin bhikkhunis.
Maybe. But those theravadin bhikkhus are primarily in Asia, where most perform a cultural & ceremonial function rather than seeking arahantship. Importantly, they teach things such as family values. I doubt Western Feminists are able to do this nor is it necessary in the West. The more Western materalism growns in these Asian societies, the less bhikkhus there will be; similar to the decline in the priesthood in the Catholic Church.
Monks Lose Relevance as Thailand Grows Richer



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/19/world ... evant.html


:candle:
polarbear101 wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:26 am
If we're interested in a complete fourfold assembly then it seems obvious that we should support bhikkhunis even more than bhikkhus in the same way that a species conservationist would give precedence to supporting asiatic lions over supporting indian leopards.
When I worked for the government, there was a (left-wing) program to promote women to managerial positions on a non-merit basis; i.e., merely promote women because they were women rather than because they had the ability to do the job. It was a disaster & humiliating to many skilled educated workers (both male & female), who had to report to & be appraised by clueless managers. I treated my manager as though I was her manager & she was my subordinate (given this was the only way to do things efficiently & properly). She did not even have a university degree despite the highly technical & specialized nature of our work. After many years, she eventually was moved elsewhere.
Never ordained... not an anonymous-online-bhikkhu or ex-bhikkhu...

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara » Thu Mar 29, 2018 9:55 pm

I would say probably both, I am in full support of the continued revival of the Bhikkhuni order, and plan to be whatever help I can be in this regard if/when I become a senior monastic, however I have noticed a strong undercurrent of much political activism in much of the western Bhikkhuni ranks. I've also spoken with 4-5 women who want to ordain as Bhikkhunis, have been to the normal places in America, and do not wish to ordain there because they simply want to be monastics and practice Dhamma, not go out to protests with signs.

it's a complicated issue that has valid points on both sides, and I can see where the Bhikkhunis who are more politically active may be coming from, I at one point was a fair bit of a political activist myself(as an independent), and it is still early days for the revival of the Bhikkhuni order, with much work to be done, I just fall staunchly on the side of feeling all monastics, men and women, should be as a-political as possible, so the Dhamma does not become a tool of division.
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SarathW
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Thu Mar 29, 2018 11:35 pm

I just watched the videos in previous post.
It is funny that some Thai said that they respect the Buddha's statue more than the monks.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by DNS » Sat Mar 31, 2018 3:44 pm

DooDoot wrote:
Sat Mar 03, 2018 10:41 am
polarbear101 wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:26 am
I think it would be accurate to say that there are well over half a million theravadin bhikkhus on earth and less than 5,000 theravadin bhikkhunis.
Maybe. But those theravadin bhikkhus are primarily in Asia, where most perform a cultural & ceremonial function rather than seeking arahantship. Importantly, they teach things such as family values. I doubt Western Feminists are able to do this nor is it necessary in the West. The more Western materalism growns in these Asian societies, the less bhikkhus there will be; similar to the decline in the priesthood in the Catholic Church.
Monks Lose Relevance as Thailand Grows Richer



http://www.nytimes.com/2012/12/19/world ... evant.html


:candle:
Interesting videos, but in them it talks of the "decline of Buddhism" but it is actually referring to the decline in bhikkhus. Apparently not too many years ago there were about 300,000 monks in Thailand and now there are 70,000. That doesn't necessarily lead to the decline of Buddhism. Perhaps Buddhism just needs to adapt to the modern world. If there are less bhikkhus, there can still be Buddhist temples, perhaps fewer in number, but larger temples which needs less monks to officiate it; something similar to the mega-churches we have in the bible-belt. Or lay led groups which already are common in the U.S. and probably other Western nations. Don't get me wrong, I'm all in favor of the monastic institutions, bhikkhus and bhikkhunis, but if there are continuing declines in their numbers, Buddhism need not decline; it just needs to adapt.

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