Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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mikenz66
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:33 am

They are a distraction. I've not idea what you are trying to achieve, but in some of your critiques I suspect that you are mixing up vinaya and local customs. As has been pointed out in some of those threads, lay people sometimes get really upset about not following some custom, such as the Thai custom of monks using a receiving cloth when receiving a gift from a woman, or some of the complex protocols around offering food in some places. Of course, it is polite to go along with the local customs, but don't confuse them with vinaya.

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:42 am

They are a distraction.
Ok.
I was just making my opinion on the matters raised in the OP.
By the way then what Vinaya rules these nuns want to get rid of?
Perhaps they should make a list of their demands.
Every time I read these nuns issues they come up with something new.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:49 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:42 am
Every time I read these nuns issues they come up with something new.
I think your personal crusade against this is not really important because what you are crusading against appears to be a 'sect'. Some people will join the sect & other people will choose ignore the sect. For example, if I am a feminist that blames the world for my personal unhappiness, I will be attracted to this sect. But if I am a person looking for peace of mind & spiritual independence, I won't be attracted to monks & nuns without peace of mind or who exhibit worldliness. What is important is the Dhamma. In other words, an impure mind can rarely survive Buddhist monasticism. It is torture.

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:07 am

I think your personal crusade against this is not really important
Sometimes I wonder whether I am a personal crusader or a person with a sense of responsibility.
People like Anagarika Dharmapala wage a personal crusade against many draw backs in Buddshism in Sri Lanka and india.
I do not think that he was a very popular man at that time but his legacy lasted for a half a century.
Western Buddhism is still in an infant stage and needs protection and lot of care.
It is the responsibility of all well-wishers to express their opinion does not matter how minor it is.

It is as important as voting.
If you do not vote you hand over the future to an undesirable person.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:53 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:07 am
People like Anagarika Dharmapala wage a personal crusade against many draw backs in Buddhism in Sri Lanka and india. I do not think that he was a very popular man at that time but his legacy lasted for a half a century.
You may correct me if I am wrong but Sri Lanka is a relatively small place & I imagine Anagarika Dharmapala would have gained the support of many Sri Lankan people, who were more or less Buddhists.
SarathW wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:07 am
Western Buddhism is still in an infant stage and needs protection and lot of care. It is the responsibility of all well-wishers to express their opinion does not matter how minor it is.
Western Buddhism is mostly a Western phenomena; started mostly by Jews & Hippies in the USA. It has no local Buddhist population & no local authority to administer it. I imagine all that can be done is the Thai authorities revoke their preceptor status of certain Western monks but the Thais would not do this nor would it work (since AB has loads of charisma to maintain his own religion). Thai monasticism is itself difficult to control.

The nun who wrote the article is here: http://samita.be/en/monks-nuns/ayya-vimala/ You can judge for yourself the merits of what was posted, about whether or not this nun has a sangha & teachers, here: http://samita.be/en/monks-nuns/ The suttas say how Right Livelihood should be conducted. Then you can make a personal decision about supporting this sect. You seem attracted to Western things but don't really understand what the West is. I left the West when I was 23yo but, due to circumstances, am stuck here for now. I like South East Asia & traditional culture. :)

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:49 am

I imagine Anagarika Dharmapala would have gained the support of many Sri Lankan people
Thanks DD for the information.
Perhaps something you are not aware is that many Western Buddhist monasteries are supported by expatriate Sri Lankans. Sri Lanka are generally have a less national identification. For them what matters is the survival of true Buddhism. Any negative feedback on Western Monks will have a major impact on the survival of Western Buddhist monks. Why Sri Lankans are so much support of Western Buddhist monks is the disappointment of their own monks. Even in my case personally, I learned Buddhism from Westerners even though the routes coming from my strong Buddhist background. I have some vested interest to protect the Western Buddhism in my own ways even though my contribution could be very minimal.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:02 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:42 am
They are a distraction.
Ok.
I was just making my opinion on the matters raised in the OP.
By the way then what Vinaya rules these nuns want to get rid of?
Perhaps they should make a list of their demands.
Every time I read these nuns issues they come up with something new.
Is the order on Pindapata vinaya or custom? If the latter, your rather intemperate post here is way out of order:
Vimala: Where in the Vinaya does it say that nuns have to go behind the Samaneras on Pindapata?

Sarath: Ayya Vimala.
With all due respect, this is outright Mana on nuns side.
Why did they became nuns?
Do they expect them to be treated as the queen?
I can’t beleive nuns are worrying about these petty things.
If I become a monk I wanted to be first in the line.
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/a-distraction/8434
My advice would be the same as DD's. If you don't like a particular group, it might be better to ignore it, since your crusade is not going to change anyone's mind.

Do you have any contact with Bhikkhuni's in Sri Lanka?

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:08 am

[Do you have any contact with Bhikkhuni's in Sri Lanka? /quote]
Unfortunately not. At least if I happen to meet one of them in the future I wish to discuss some of those matters with them.
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:10 am

Is the order on Pindapata vinaya or custom?
My point is whether it is Vinaya or custom why we make an issue out of it.
As far as I am a concern it is a trivial matter.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:30 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:10 am
Is the order on Pindapata vinaya or custom?
My point is whether it is Vinaya or custom why we make an issue out of it.
As far as I am a concern it is a trivial matter.
Then why are you making an issue out of it? Why do you post speculations about bhikkhuni's wanting to be queens? Do you think anyone will take posts like that seriously?

As I said in one of those threads, you seem to be picking on relatively trivial matters to criticise, and not acknowledgeing the systemic problems that many bhikkhunis have talked about, on SC and elsewhere.

If you are really interested in these issues, I suggest you seek out some Bhikkunis in real life and actually listen to what they have to say, rather than making sweeping assumptions about their motivations.

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:23 am

not acknowledgeing the systemic problems
In your opinion what are the systemic problems faced by nuns?
Is it not enough housing?
I can't recall any systemic problems except all seem trivial to me.

:shrug:
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:42 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:49 am
Perhaps something you are not aware is that many Western Buddhist monasteries are supported by expatriate Sri Lankans.
Maybe. But my recollection is AB refuted the benefaction of the Thai Sangha & People, claiming he raised his own money (which I recall he later did, when Ajahn Jagaro disrobed, by giving talks about reincarnation to rich Chinese Malaysians & Singaporeans). I also recall AS declared himself an 'independent monk'. The bhikkhuni issue all those years ago was a classic divide-&-conquer Cultural Marxist strategy, where the perpetrators claimed to be the victim; such as in this ridiculous video; where the Thai Sangha was accused of having "hatred" & other evil qualities.



I personally have no issues discerning virtue from sin. The Buddha taught to be grateful for the smallest favour or gift. If your Buddhism was learned in Thailand, you should be grateful to the Thai People. As Buddhists, we are always grateful to our benefactors.

As a Buddhist, you must respect which ever culture, society or home you visit. If I posted on SC, I would deliberately attempt to respect their culture. Otherwise, I would not post there. Particularly, I would not post to make the monks & nuns look bad because the monks & nuns are the leaders of that group. In my opinion, your attacking the leaders of that group; on their website; is not virtuous conduct. You are behaving like Jesus; who falsely claimed the synagogue was his fathers house; and turned over the tables of the money-changers.



The synagogue did not belong to Jesus or his Father. The synagogue belonged to those Jews who built & financed it. Ajahn Chah said the Dhamma is our True Home (rather than a synagogue or website).
What's important is that we should do as the Lord Buddha taught and build our own home, building it by the method that I've been explaining to you. Build your home. Let go. Let go until the mind reaches the peace that is free from advancing, free from retreating and free from stopping still. Pleasure is not our home, pain is not our home. Pleasure and pain both decline and pass away.

Ajahn Chah https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/tha ... bl111.html
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Feb 26, 2018 11:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:34 pm

SarathW wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 10:23 am
not acknowledgeing the systemic problems
In your opinion what are the systemic problems faced by nuns?
Is it not enough housing?
I can't recall any systemic problems except all seem trivial to me.

:shrug:
OK, fair enough. That is your impression. It all seems trivial.

I have a completely different impression, from reading and listening to accounts on SC and other places on the internet, and from meeting a very small number of nuns and bhikkhunis (that small number is one of the problems).

I have explained my position here, and on SC. If you still think that the concerns are all trivial I don't see any point in saying any more.

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by befriend » Tue Feb 27, 2018 12:09 am

Ordination has everything to do with arahantship. Lay people cannot become fully enlightened without ordaining within seven days or they die.
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SDC » Tue Feb 27, 2018 3:49 am

Back.

To.

Topic.

(Off topic content removed)

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by Polar Bear » Tue Feb 27, 2018 4:26 am

I think the Alliance for Bhikkhunis is obviously a wholesome and helpful organization. I think it would be accurate to say that there are well over half a million theravadin bhikkhus on earth and less than 5,000 theravadin bhikkhunis. If we're interested in a complete fourfold assembly then it seems obvious that we should support bhikkhunis even more than bhikkhus in the same way that a species conservationist would give precedence to supporting asiatic lions over supporting indian leopards.

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by robertk » Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:13 am

In my opinion, as the Bhikkuni order became extinct centuries ago, and at least in Theravada cannot be resuscitated, your analogy would be better if you were suggesting funds be devoted to reviving the dodo. Or putting funds and support into assisting meichii.

There will be again bhikkhuni( and possibly Dodo too) in the far off future during the sasana of the next Buddha.

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by Polar Bear » Tue Feb 27, 2018 8:07 am

robertk wrote:
Tue Feb 27, 2018 7:13 am
In my opinion, as the Bhikkuni order became extinct centuries ago, and at least in Theravada cannot be resuscitated, your analogy would be better if you were suggesting funds be devoted to reviving the dodo. Or putting funds and support into assisting meichii.

There will be again bhikkhuni( and possibly Dodo too) in the far off future during the sasana of the next Buddha.
(Edit: deleted american lion bit)

I follow the reasoning of Bhikkhu Anālayo on this matter so I believe the bhikkhuni lineage has been successfully revived. I donated a hundred bucks to the Alliance for Bhikkhunis earlier today. May it be of use to some bhikkhunis in their quest to realize the unexcelled sublime state of peace, Nibbana!

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by befriend » Tue Feb 27, 2018 1:03 pm

That's an unwholesome extremist view the Buddhas teachings his actually words are in this day an age recorded so well we can with confidence say this is the Buddhas Dhamma Buddha might as well still be alive his teachings are spreading to the Americas and Africa what harm is there in bhikkhuni ordination when Buddhas legacy is on the precipice of expanding more than it ever has in history.
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:07 am

well still be alive his teachings are spreading to the Americas and Africa what harm is there in bhikkhuni ordination when Buddha's legacy is on the precipice of expanding more than it ever has in history.
I am a supporter of the Bhikkhuni ordination.
What I am not supporting is the distortion of the Vinaya by some nuns.
See the following video, Bhante Sujato is cherry picking the Vinaya code.
One point he said that he does not believe the Vinaya code to support his point and the next he uses the Vinaya to support another point.
It appears Bhante Sujato is the attorney for the Bhikkunis who does not want to follow the Vinaya code.
In another instance he says Buddha impose Garudhamm to combat the pride of Mahaprajapati Gotami and his opinion it applies only to her, not to the Bhikkunis.
It is hilarious because Buddha imposes something in Vinaya code just to cover one person.

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