Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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rightviewftw
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:35 am

Caodemarte wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:06 am
rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:04 am
Caodemarte wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:53 pm
How is the movement for better treatment of nuns political in any way? It sounds pretty misogynistic and not Buddhistic to automatically assume it is, opposed apparently solely because women are involved.
It is a matter about controlling for 3rd party influences that is all. Like not let the CIA fund the Bhikkhuni Sangha ie. Things like that...
Ok, we are well into tin hat territory.
I was just making an example pointing out how this has naught to do with gender really ive no idea what goes on there but i know it is all quite important to many people.
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by DooDoot » Sat Feb 24, 2018 3:21 am

dharmacorps wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:25 am
...because of the red tape involved in just being a "bhikkhuni", aren't unable to get decent training...
Traditionally, obtaining training requires subservience to a teacher, which appears impossible for Feminists that demand non-merit-based equality. For example, from the story of Sariputta:
Then, when the Elder had gathered his almsfood, and Upatissa saw him going to another place intending to sit down and take his meal, he prepared for him his own ascetic's seat that he carried with him, and offered it to the Elder. The Elder Assaji took his meal, after which Upatissa served him with water from his own water-container, and in that way performed towards Assaji the duties of a pupil to a teacher.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/aut ... 090.html#i
I doubt the following typical Feminist attitude of disparaging yet demanding things from men (which includes a clear breach of the Vinaya of criticising & even slandering monks) will help win respect from the monastic Sangha (however it could accrue some donations from wealthy left-wing lay people):
Many monks pretend you don’t exist or treat you like some contagious disease because they fear their own defilements. You are cut off from your male friends because you have the wrong gender.

Sometimes I envy those monks who can live the monastic life with an inspiring teacher and learn the living Dhamma. I never had that. Most other nuns never had that. Our teacher is the internet. We have to find our own way. And yes, it can be very lonely at times. Even if you are lucky enough to be able to stay near an inspiring monk for a few months, you are never accepted into the community, always kept at a distance; there is always this tension because you are seen as a danger to their monastic life. It it is sometimes hard not to buy into that feeling of inferiority, of feeling you are just not good enough.
This nun appears to have Ajahns Brahmali & Sujato to be the "defiled endangered male monk teachers" she wants. Obviously, the above cannot be true. Practising the path only requires teachings & personal practise. This nun appears to be on the internet 24/7 & can use Skype if she is lonely.

The following video shows a well-trained bhikkhuni; who won the respect of laypeople due to their respect, wisdom & virtue:


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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by befriend » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:07 pm

I think it's a very moral issue. If women can't be fully ordained how will they become arahants? Dipa ma probably would have become an Arahant if she could ordain.
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:05 am

If women can't be fully ordained how will they become arahants?
As far as I understand, ordination is nothing to do with becoming an Arahant.
By the way, before becoming an Arahant there are many other things to accomplish.
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 26, 2018 2:22 am

Further discussion in SC on this matter.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/pl ... op/8384/58

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/ju ... ll/8413/39

Unfortunately my comments were considered a distraction by the moderators and moved to the following thread!

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/a- ... on/8434/45
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:33 am

They are a distraction. I've not idea what you are trying to achieve, but in some of your critiques I suspect that you are mixing up vinaya and local customs. As has been pointed out in some of those threads, lay people sometimes get really upset about not following some custom, such as the Thai custom of monks using a receiving cloth when receiving a gift from a woman, or some of the complex protocols around offering food in some places. Of course, it is polite to go along with the local customs, but don't confuse them with vinaya.

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:42 am

They are a distraction.
Ok.
I was just making my opinion on the matters raised in the OP.
By the way then what Vinaya rules these nuns want to get rid of?
Perhaps they should make a list of their demands.
Every time I read these nuns issues they come up with something new.
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 26, 2018 5:49 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:42 am
Every time I read these nuns issues they come up with something new.
I think your personal crusade against this is not really important because what you are crusading against appears to be a 'sect'. Some people will join the sect & other people will choose ignore the sect. For example, if I am a feminist that blames the world for my personal unhappiness, I will be attracted to this sect. But if I am a person looking for peace of mind & spiritual independence, I won't be attracted to monks & nuns without peace of mind or who exhibit worldliness. What is important is the Dhamma. In other words, an impure mind can rarely survive Buddhist monasticism. It is torture.

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:07 am

I think your personal crusade against this is not really important
Sometimes I wonder whether I am a personal crusader or a person with a sense of responsibility.
People like Anagarika Dharmapala wage a personal crusade against many draw backs in Buddshism in Sri Lanka and india.
I do not think that he was a very popular man at that time but his legacy lasted for a half a century.
Western Buddhism is still in an infant stage and needs protection and lot of care.
It is the responsibility of all well-wishers to express their opinion does not matter how minor it is.

It is as important as voting.
If you do not vote you hand over the future to an undesirable person.
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by DooDoot » Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:53 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:07 am
People like Anagarika Dharmapala wage a personal crusade against many draw backs in Buddhism in Sri Lanka and india. I do not think that he was a very popular man at that time but his legacy lasted for a half a century.
You may correct me if I am wrong but Sri Lanka is a relatively small place & I imagine Anagarika Dharmapala would have gained the support of many Sri Lankan people, who were more or less Buddhists.
SarathW wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 6:07 am
Western Buddhism is still in an infant stage and needs protection and lot of care. It is the responsibility of all well-wishers to express their opinion does not matter how minor it is.
Western Buddhism is mostly a Western phenomena; started mostly by Jews & Hippies in the USA. It has no local Buddhist population & no local authority to administer it. I imagine all that can be done is the Thai authorities revoke their preceptor status of certain Western monks but the Thais would not do this nor would it work (since AB has loads of charisma to maintain his own religion). Thai monasticism is itself difficult to control.

The nun who wrote the article is here: http://samita.be/en/monks-nuns/ayya-vimala/ You can judge for yourself the merits of what was posted, about whether or not this nun has a sangha & teachers, here: http://samita.be/en/monks-nuns/ The suttas say how Right Livelihood should be conducted. Then you can make a personal decision about supporting this sect. You seem attracted to Western things but don't really understand what the West is. I left the West when I was 23yo but, due to circumstances, am stuck here for now. I like South East Asia & traditional culture. :)

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 26, 2018 7:49 am

I imagine Anagarika Dharmapala would have gained the support of many Sri Lankan people
Thanks DD for the information.
Perhaps something you are not aware is that many Western Buddhist monasteries are supported by expatriate Sri Lankans. Sri Lanka are generally have a less national identification. For them what matters is the survival of true Buddhism. Any negative feedback on Western Monks will have a major impact on the survival of Western Buddhist monks. Why Sri Lankans are so much support of Western Buddhist monks is the disappointment of their own monks. Even in my case personally, I learned Buddhism from Westerners even though the routes coming from my strong Buddhist background. I have some vested interest to protect the Western Buddhism in my own ways even though my contribution could be very minimal.
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:02 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 4:42 am
They are a distraction.
Ok.
I was just making my opinion on the matters raised in the OP.
By the way then what Vinaya rules these nuns want to get rid of?
Perhaps they should make a list of their demands.
Every time I read these nuns issues they come up with something new.
Is the order on Pindapata vinaya or custom? If the latter, your rather intemperate post here is way out of order:
Vimala: Where in the Vinaya does it say that nuns have to go behind the Samaneras on Pindapata?

Sarath: Ayya Vimala.
With all due respect, this is outright Mana on nuns side.
Why did they became nuns?
Do they expect them to be treated as the queen?
I can’t beleive nuns are worrying about these petty things.
If I become a monk I wanted to be first in the line.
https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/a-distraction/8434
My advice would be the same as DD's. If you don't like a particular group, it might be better to ignore it, since your crusade is not going to change anyone's mind.

Do you have any contact with Bhikkhuni's in Sri Lanka?

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:08 am

[Do you have any contact with Bhikkhuni's in Sri Lanka? /quote]
Unfortunately not. At least if I happen to meet one of them in the future I wish to discuss some of those matters with them.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:10 am

Is the order on Pindapata vinaya or custom?
My point is whether it is Vinaya or custom why we make an issue out of it.
As far as I am a concern it is a trivial matter.
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:30 am

SarathW wrote:
Mon Feb 26, 2018 8:10 am
Is the order on Pindapata vinaya or custom?
My point is whether it is Vinaya or custom why we make an issue out of it.
As far as I am a concern it is a trivial matter.
Then why are you making an issue out of it? Why do you post speculations about bhikkhuni's wanting to be queens? Do you think anyone will take posts like that seriously?

As I said in one of those threads, you seem to be picking on relatively trivial matters to criticise, and not acknowledgeing the systemic problems that many bhikkhunis have talked about, on SC and elsewhere.

If you are really interested in these issues, I suggest you seek out some Bhikkunis in real life and actually listen to what they have to say, rather than making sweeping assumptions about their motivations.

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