Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
SarathW
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Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:14 am

Is "Alliance for Bhikkhunis" a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

http://www.bhikkhuni.net/mission/

Mission statement of Alliance of Bhikkhunis.
==============
Founded in 2007, the Alliance for Bhikkhunis is a US-based 501 (c)(3) non-profit organization committed to supporting ordained Theravada Buddhist women. Our focus is to support and protect the development of the international Bhikkhuni Sangha through education, sustainable economic empowerment, provisioning of health care, and organizing and mobilizing for a gender-balanced approach to Theravada monasticism.


=====================
I think reading the highlighted aspect of above association it seems they are pushing for a gender separation agenda.
Which means more and more male monks will try to keep away from the Bhikkhunis order.
Please read this in line with the current Sutta Central discussion thread.

https://discourse.suttacentral.net/t/pl ... op/8384/23
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

rightviewftw
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:19 am

Id prefer an egalitarian organization but whatever really, it is good some western funds go that way imo.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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retrofuturist
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:23 am

Greetings Sarath,

(Apologies in advance that I have not taken the time to read the links - I am just going to go by what you have said and quoted...)

The Bhikkhuni order is necessarily a separate order from the Bhikkhu order - the Buddha established it that way.

Just as in the Bhikkhu order there are monks who stay true to the letter and the spirit of the Buddha's teaching, I see no reason it would be otherwise within a Bhikkhuni order for the bhikkhunis.

I don't know what "organizing and mobilizing for a gender-balanced approach" necessarily entails (...it sounds like some form of cultural Marxism...) but if it involves deviating away from the letter and the spirit of the Buddha's teaching, then I suspect it just as likely to be doomed to spiritual failure as bhikkhus who fall away from the letter and the spirit of the Buddha's teaching. If it is in accord with the Dhamma and the Vinaya, then good for them.

Whether they fail or succeed is ultimately up to them, and I feel no strong inclination to support or decry what they're doing.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

SarathW
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:33 am

Whether they fail or succeed is ultimately up to them, and I feel no strong inclination to support or decry what they're doing.
I have great interest in preservation of this old tradition. (Bhikkhuni order)
My concern here is whether the gung-ho attitude of some Bhiikuhnis put the progress in the reverse order.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

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retrofuturist
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by retrofuturist » Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:48 am

Greetings Sarath,
SarathW wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:33 am
Whether they fail or succeed is ultimately up to them, and I feel no strong inclination to support or decry what they're doing.
I have great interest in preservation of this old tradition. (Bhikkhuni order)
My concern here is whether the gung-ho attitude of some Bhiikuhnis put the progress in the reverse order.
Yes, I understand... the pros and cons of such issues have been discussed (albeit in a slightly different context) here before in relation to Bhikkhu Bodhi's inclination towards activism.

Metta,
Paul. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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DooDoot
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:28 am

Is this the same or a different SarathW at this link making those very pertinent posts? Surely, not? ;) :D SarathW Lion's Roar :)
This is how the wise roar:
Like lions in mountain caves,
Heroes, triumphant in battle,
Having vanquished Māra and his army.

I’ve attended on the teacher;
I’ve honoured the Dhamma and the Saṅgha;
I’m happy and joyful,
Because I’ve seen my daughter free of defilements.

https://suttacentral.net/en/thag2.29

Caodemarte
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by Caodemarte » Fri Feb 23, 2018 3:52 pm

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 12:23 am
....
(Apologies in advance that I have not taken the time to read the links - I am just going to go by what you have said and quoted...)...The Bhikkhuni order is necessarily a separate order from the Bhikkhu order - the Buddha established it that way....I don't know what "organizing and mobilizing for a gender-balanced approach" necessarily entails (...it sounds like some form of cultural Marxism...) but if it involves deviating away from the letter and the spirit of the Buddha's teaching, then I suspect it just as likely to be doomed to spiritual failure as bhikkhus who fall away from the letter and the spirit of the Buddha's teaching. If it is in accord with the Dhamma and the Vinaya, then good for them....
Had you read the links you would see that there is no effort to combine nuns and monks, but rather to elevate the depressed status of nuns. It seems more in line with the Dhamma than the denial of instruction and material support to females as a ritually impure caste and their exploitation in many countries.

I was struck by your reference to “cultural Marxism” in reference to efforts to strengthen Buddhist groups so I looked it up.

“First — extremely rarely — "Cultural Marxism" refers to an obscure critique of popular culture by the Frankfurt School, framing culture as being imposed by a capitalist culture industry and consumed passively by the masses.
Second — in common usage in the wild — "Cultural Marxism" is a snarl word used to paint anyone with progressive tendencies as a secret Communist. The term alludes to a conspiracy theory in which sinister left-wingers have infiltrated media, academia, and science and are engaged in a decades-long plot to undermine Western culture. Some variants of the conspiracy alleges that basically all of modern social liberalism is, in fact, a Communist front group.
This conspiracy theory hinges on the idea that the Frankfurt School wasn't just an arcane strain of academic criticism.[note 1] Instead, the Frankfurt School was behind an ongoing Marxist plot to destroy the capitalist West from within, spreading its tentacles throughout academia and indoctrinating students to hate patriotism & freedom. Thus, rock'n'roll, Sixties counterculture, the civil rights movement, the anti-war movement, homosexuality,[1] modern feminism, and in general all the "decay" in the West since the 1950s are allegedly products of the Frankfurt school.[2] It's also the work of the Jews.[3][4]

The conspiracist usage originated in Nazi Germany, where Kulturbolschewismus ("Cultural Bolshevism") was used to abuse political opponents. In particular, Jews purportedly were secretly orchestrating the spread of Communism (Jewish BolshevismWikipedia's W.svg) as well as promoting sexual & gender permissiveness ("sexual Bolshevism").[5]”
https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Cultural_Marxism

rightviewftw
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by rightviewftw » Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:09 pm

I would be concerned about politically weaponizing the Nun Sangha tho but at least in that department the genders are treated equally by Mara and his minions.
Then Mara the Evil One, desiring to arouse fear, trepidation, and terror in the bhikkhuni Soma, desiring to make her fall away from concentration, approached her and addressed her in verse:

“That state so hard to achieve
Which is to be attained by the seers,
Can’t be attained by a woman
With her two-fingered wisdom.”

Then it occurred to the bhikkhuni Soma: “Now who is this that recited the verse—a human being or a nonhuman being?” Then it occurred to her: “This is Mara the Evil One, who has recited the verse desiring to arouse fear, trepidation, and terror in me, desiring to make me fall away from concentration.”

Then the bhikkhuni Soma, having understood, “This is Mara the Evil One,” replied to him in verses:

“What does womanhood matter at all
When the mind is concentrated well,
When knowledge flows on steadily
As one sees correctly into Dhamma.

“One to whom it might occur,
‘I’m a woman’ or ‘I’m a man’
Or ‘I’m anything at all’—
Is fit for Mara to address.”
I've seen too many monks self-immolating now and the war on Truth is real to me in that sense.
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

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DooDoot
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by DooDoot » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:11 pm

rightviewftw wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 4:09 pm
I would be concerned about politically weaponizing the Nun Sangha....
The Buddhist internet world is very small. I can't imagine this matter having any significance to dedicated practitioners. I was tempted to respond to the OP but changed my mind. Dedication to silent meditation is the opposite of dedication to noisy political activism.

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by dylanj » Fri Feb 23, 2018 10:54 pm

I fully support Bhikkhunī ordination but social justice, identity politics, activism, & any emphasis on gender within or among the Dhamma is a threat to the dispensation as a whole. "gender-balanced approach" is a nice way to word it & I don't have problem with that as there certainly is an imbalance that needs correcting. But as one can see from suttacentral some of those involved in this movement are engaging in full-on feminist ideologies that seem entangled in identity-view. Some of these individuals are in robes. I think that is unfortunate. If this movement must be political or ideological at all, at the least that should be left to lay people & the nuns should stay out of it.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all assets, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

SarathW
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by SarathW » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:49 pm

“One to whom it might occur,
‘I’m a woman’ or ‘I’m a man’
Or ‘I’m anything at all’—
Is fit for Mara to address.”
:goodpost:

Well said.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

Caodemarte
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by Caodemarte » Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:53 pm

How is the movement for better treatment of nuns political in any way? It sounds pretty misogynistic and not Buddhistic to automatically assume it is, opposed as having a hidden ideological agenda apparently solely because women are involved. Remember that the purpose is to stop treating people in a special way because of their gender and ascribed identity.

rightviewftw
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by rightviewftw » Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:04 am

Caodemarte wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:53 pm
How is the movement for better treatment of nuns political in any way? It sounds pretty misogynistic and not Buddhistic to automatically assume it is, opposed apparently solely because women are involved.
It is a matter about controlling for 3rd party influences that is all. Like not let the CIA fund the Bhikkhuni Sangha ie. Things like that...
How to meditate: Anapanasati, Satipatthana.
Intro to General Semantics
Factors & Perceptions

Parallel Dhammapada Reading
Chinese to Eng Dhp
"The statements; 'With the remainderless stopping & fading of the six contact-media is it the case that there is anything else?' '.. is it the case that there is not anything else .. is it the case that there both is & is not anything else .. is it the case that there neither is nor is not anything else?' objectify non-objectification. However far the six contact-media go, that is how far objectification goes."

Caodemarte
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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by Caodemarte » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:06 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Sat Feb 24, 2018 12:04 am
Caodemarte wrote:
Fri Feb 23, 2018 11:53 pm
How is the movement for better treatment of nuns political in any way? It sounds pretty misogynistic and not Buddhistic to automatically assume it is, opposed apparently solely because women are involved.
It is a matter about controlling for 3rd party influences that is all. Like not let the CIA fund the Bhikkhuni Sangha ie. Things like that...
Ok, we are well into tin hat territory.

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Re: Is Alliance for Bhikkhunis a support or a threat to the Bhikkunis order?

Post by dharmacorps » Sat Feb 24, 2018 1:25 am

I am all for supporting nuns. whether the bhikkhuni re-establishment will take root, it remains to be seen. Given what I have heard about the realities of living in the re-established bhikkhuni order, the path of 8 or 10 precepts nun/mae chee living in a monastery may be a better option just pragmatically speaking. Fact is there are many very ardent and dedicated women of all numbers of precepts, but which is the best way to get good training in dhamma and establish a lineage of nuns going again seems to be unclear to me. I feel some of the bhikkunis today are holding the vinaya well and have excellent intentions, but because of the red tape involved in just being a "bhikkhuni", aren't unable to get decent training (perhaps the biggest concern), support, or resources, which they may get more of as 8-10 precept mae chees.

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