giving alms to monk that has committed pārājika

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Dhammarakkhito
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giving alms to monk that has committed pārājika

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:44 pm

in this video there is a 'monk' who works as a bartender and is married in what we could presume is a consummate relationship.

firstly would he be a validly ordained monk
in the dakkhinavibhanga sutta the buddha says that giving to monks who are unvirtuous and bad natured still yields limitless merit https://www.ancient-buddhist-texts.net/ ... suttam.htm
but if you commit a pārājika you are not a monk?? how does this work
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Sam Vara
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Re: giving alms to monk that has committed pārājika

Post by Sam Vara » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:49 pm

My understanding is that as soon as a monk commits one of the 4 parajika offences, then he automatically ceases at that point to become a monk. Giving alms to such a person might be wholesome, but if the above is correct, then it is not wholesome in the same way that giving alms to a monk is wholesome.

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Re: giving alms to monk that has committed pārājika

Post by Virgo » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:55 pm

The person in the video is not an ordained monk, he is a Japanese priest. In Japan these priests can marry, and they have not been ordained as monks or taken the vow of celibacy that those seeking to live the holy life take.

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Re: giving alms to monk that has committed pārājika

Post by DNS » Wed Feb 14, 2018 9:58 pm

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:44 pm
in this video there is a 'monk' who works as a bartender and is married in what we could presume is a consummate relationship.
I'm not saying what he is doing is right, but he appears to be a Shinto-Zen monk, not a Theravada monk, so perhaps doesn't take any precepts against alcohol and their tradition does not require celibacy. So one would expect a Theravada Buddhist to not support him, but those from that tradition might want to support him.

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Re: giving alms to monk that has committed pārājika

Post by dylanj » Wed Feb 14, 2018 10:06 pm

Yeah I don't think (could be wrong) they actually undertake the Vinaya.

But then we could use instead the example of a tantric tibetan who *does* get ordained under a vinaya, perhaps not the exact same as the theravada vinaya but a mostly authentic vinaya nonetheless, but then drinks alcohol or has sex or such
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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rightviewftw
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Re: giving alms to monk that has committed pārājika

Post by rightviewftw » Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:08 am

Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:44 pm
in the dakkhinavibhanga sutta the buddha says that giving to monks who are unvirtuous and bad natured still yields limitless merit
Thanks for posting this, i underestimated how great the gifts are on account of community.

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Re: giving alms to monk that has committed pārājika

Post by pilgrim » Thu Feb 15, 2018 1:44 am

There are numerous sects in Japan, each focusing on a group of sutras or philosophies. There were minor schools which followed Vinaya but most either died out or were absorbed into the larger Mahayana schools. The Ritsu was most notable but I'm not sure if they survived as an independent school till today.

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Re: giving alms to monk that has committed pārājika

Post by Samana Johann 1 » Wed Mar 21, 2018 12:03 am

rightviewftw wrote:
Thu Feb 15, 2018 12:08 am
Dhammarakkhito wrote:
Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:44 pm
in the dakkhinavibhanga sutta the buddha says that giving to monks who are unvirtuous and bad natured still yields limitless merit
Thanks for posting this, i underestimated how great the gifts are on account of community.
Nyom Ruslan, it's not on acccount of every community (and it's good to think on it) but there is "hope" that ones gift or receiving meets in a group where virtuous are met. But if a community cuts of the virtuous ones eternally, what ever they will expect by giving and receiving, those gift will not help them out.

There is so much danger in the cases when a parisa falls into corruption. And it is a gift, it is a blessing, if ways out are possible, yet never for sure.

If someone likes to share this Sutta translated, or ask pure ones proper, shares then out of compassion, if possessing and rightly gained, to those even worthy of it, of what great fruits would it be.

As for understanding the issue of the OP, to possible investigate it from both sides, it would be good to ask: "What if a disciple of the Noble ones, gives the gift of Dhamma toward those having fallen in a great offens, broken up the refuge or even incapable to grow in Dhamma?"

At least, this is the reason, if seeing, to confess a missdeed not under those with same offence. Why? Because it could not be purified. Does neither be of benefit of the giver nor of the receiver.

One might think on account of this sutta, "oh there will be purification anyway" and relaxes, but that is really not the case:

To cite from a possible unrighteous gained and shared gift:
Yo dussīlo dussīlesu dadāti dānaṁ, adhammena laddhaṁ appasannacitto,
That unvirtuous person who, with a mind lacking in confidence, gives a gift that has been unrighteously obtained to unvirtuous people,

anabhisaddahaṁ kammaphalaṁ uḷāraṁ, na taṁ dānaṁ vipulapphalan-ti 33 brūmi.
who does not have great faith in actions and their results, that gift will not bring an extensive reward I say.
Seek for those more sublime and do not dwell with equal and lower, for your ideas are not sure to be right! Dwelling with equal, the Buddha said, is most proper if Sotas dwell with Sotas, ... Arahats with Arahats.

Possible lost are those caught in Dhamma-trade, both, dealer and consumer. Communities of no generisity but just trade and exchange, modern world. For its hard that one able to give purification could arise, not to speak of resist. Such growing "Dana"-wheel increases only the corpse in this world, enlarges the burning and death. Yet there is nothing to doubt that only this will be soon left in this world.

Hurry up! Still there might be ways. Either in becoming a person of integrity or to seek after them, and dwell with the wise, not with fools.

Seek for protection and use that gained already wise.

May there purification arise by this share and may those able to rejoice take part on the merits, may the Devas inform those having had not be touched yet.
It's not clear if the possibility to take on form here is given, so also this post might be made on merely uncomfortable trust. Please don't be shy to make remark as well as to do what ever with the post you might be inspired to. Key is found here. May it be, how ever, understood as Dhamma-Dana toward the Sangha of Buddhas Savakas and those following them and not thought for any kind of trade or exchange for low purpose for the world. Feel also always welcome here.

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