Dhamma Wheel Buddhist Forum

Can someone give me what is this problem about Bhikhuni ordination in few words?
Please do not direct to a link.

SarathW wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:58 am Can someone give me what is this problem about Bhikhuni ordination in few words?
Please do not direct to a link.

It's kind of complicated, but I'll try to do it in a few words.

The Theravada bhikkhuni ordination line died out in year 1017 CE in Sri Lanka. You need a double ordination of monks and nuns to ordain new nuns. Since there were no longer any nuns around, some traditionalists believe that it cannot be revived.

The other side, mostly modernists, but some traditionalists too, believe that it can and has been revived using Dharmaguptaka and Mahayana nuns to help perform the double ordination. Modernists argue that it is what the Buddha wanted (the 4 fold assembly). Now there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of Theravada bhikkhunis, so Dharmagupta and Mahayana nuns are no longer used for the double ordination. There are Theravada bhikkhunis available now who are preceptors for ordaining new bhikkhunis.

You need a double ordination of monks and nuns to ordain new nuns.

What is double ordination?
Why was Ajhan Braham ex-communicated?

SarathW wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:53 am What is double ordination?

According to Vinaya rules, a samanera nun is first ordained by a quorum of bhikkhus and then a quorum of bhikkhunis or something like that, when becoming fully ordained.

Why was Ajhan Braham ex-communicated?

He was just ex-communicated from the parent temple in Thailand, but is still a bhikkhu in Australia. He was barred from the parent temple for ordaining bhikkhunis. There was a big controversy over that and some say it was for ordaining bhikkhunis and others say it was because he didn't ask for permission from the parent temple.


The historic double ordination ceremony in Northern California in August 2010

edit: wrong photo, the one Ajahn Brahm performed was a year earlier in 2009 where he ordained 4 women as bhikkhunis with Ayya Tathaaloka as the bhikkhuni preceptor.

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Bhikkhuni_ordination

Here is the correct photo from 2009:

Can I please direct you to a link anyway? It's a very good one.

maranadhammomhi wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:39 am Can I please direct you to a link anyway? It's a very good one.

ok

Another good link.

Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

https://sujato.wordpress.com/2009/11/07 ... municated/

DNS wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:47 amIt's kind of complicated, but I'll try to do it in a few words.

The Theravada bhikkhuni ordination line died out in year 1017 CE in Sri Lanka. You need a double ordination of monks and nuns to ordain new nuns. Since there were no longer any nuns around, some traditionalists believe that it cannot be revived.

The other side, mostly modernists, but some traditionalists too, believe that it can and has been revived using Dharmaguptaka and Mahayana nuns to help perform the double ordination. Modernists argue that it is what the Buddha wanted (the 4 fold assembly). Now there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of Theravada bhikkhunis, so Dharmagupta and Mahayana nuns are no longer used for the double ordination. There are Theravada bhikkhunis available now who are preceptors for ordaining new bhikkhunis.

Some who are in favor of ordination for women present the issue in roundabout as such:
Women are just as entitled to monastic status as men. Therefore, there should also be bhikkhunis. The historical/traditional criteria for what is necessary to ordain a woman should not be regarded as more important than a woman's right to ordain. (Provided she fulfills all the other criteria, such as not being married, not being in debt etc..)

binocular wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:46 pm

DNS wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:47 amIt's kind of complicated, but I'll try to do it in a few words.

The Theravada bhikkhuni ordination line died out in year 1017 CE in Sri Lanka. You need a double ordination of monks and nuns to ordain new nuns. Since there were no longer any nuns around, some traditionalists believe that it cannot be revived.

The other side, mostly modernists, but some traditionalists too, believe that it can and has been revived using Dharmaguptaka and Mahayana nuns to help perform the double ordination. Modernists argue that it is what the Buddha wanted (the 4 fold assembly). Now there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of Theravada bhikkhunis, so Dharmagupta and Mahayana nuns are no longer used for the double ordination. There are Theravada bhikkhunis available now who are preceptors for ordaining new bhikkhunis.

Some who are in favor of ordination for women present the issue in roundabout as such:
Women are just as entitled to monastic status as men. Therefore, there should also be bhikkhunis. The historical/traditional criteria for what is necessary to ordain a woman should not be regarded as more important than a woman's right to ordain. (Provided she fulfills all the other criteria, such as not being married, not being in debt etc..)

Women were not in the beginning welcome by the Buddha to ordain as nuns into his Sangha! So, it should not be an issue of women's right. It is the matter of the Sangha.

Thomas

SarathW wrote: ↑Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:58 amCan someone give me what is this problem about Bhikhuni ordination in few words.

Thai Sanghas not (yet) ordain women.

More here: http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... lRgXFWWYkI

what do you mean, thomas? gotama and the other six buddhas to my knowledge had bhikkhunī orders.

thomaslaw wrote: ↑Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:42 am
Women were not in the beginning welcome by the Buddha to ordain as nuns into his Sangha! So, it should not be an issue of women's right. It is the matter of the Sangha.

Thomas

I can't find the quote offhand, but I recall reading that the Buddha was concerned for their safety (with good reason), travelling in forests alone etc; it wasn't just because they were women, that he initially said no. There were other reasons.

Since there were no longer any nuns around, some traditionalists believe that it cannot be revived.

I'd say, not "some", but "almost all" traditionalists insist that theravada bhikkhuni ordination is no longer valid - well, this is why they are traditionalists -)

The other side, mostly modernists, but some traditionalists too, believe that it can and has been revived using Dharmaguptaka and Mahayana nuns to help perform the double ordination.

Dharmaguptaka/Mahayana method has great flaw in sense that if you accept such ordination, then you accept that all mahayana male monks are theravadin monks, which is... well... an absurd -)