Bhikhuni ordination?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
SarathW
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Bhikhuni ordination?

Post by SarathW » Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:58 am

Can someone give me what is this problem about Bhikhuni ordination in few words?
Please do not direct to a link.
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DNS
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Re: Bhikhuni ordination?

Post by DNS » Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:47 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:58 am
Can someone give me what is this problem about Bhikhuni ordination in few words?
Please do not direct to a link.
It's kind of complicated, but I'll try to do it in a few words.

The Theravada bhikkhuni ordination line died out in year 1017 CE in Sri Lanka. You need a double ordination of monks and nuns to ordain new nuns. Since there were no longer any nuns around, some traditionalists believe that it cannot be revived.

The other side, mostly modernists, but some traditionalists too, believe that it can and has been revived using Dharmaguptaka and Mahayana nuns to help perform the double ordination. Modernists argue that it is what the Buddha wanted (the 4 fold assembly). Now there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of Theravada bhikkhunis, so Dharmagupta and Mahayana nuns are no longer used for the double ordination. There are Theravada bhikkhunis available now who are preceptors for ordaining new bhikkhunis.

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Re: Bhikhuni ordination?

Post by SarathW » Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:53 am

You need a double ordination of monks and nuns to ordain new nuns.
What is double ordination?
Why was Ajhan Braham ex-communicated?
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Re: Bhikhuni ordination?

Post by DNS » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:18 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 5:53 am
What is double ordination?
According to Vinaya rules, a samanera nun is first ordained by a quorum of bhikkhus and then a quorum of bhikkhunis or something like that, when becoming fully ordained.
Why was Ajhan Braham ex-communicated?
He was just ex-communicated from the parent temple in Thailand, but is still a bhikkhu in Australia. He was barred from the parent temple for ordaining bhikkhunis. There was a big controversy over that and some say it was for ordaining bhikkhunis and others say it was because he didn't ask for permission from the parent temple.

Image
The historic double ordination ceremony in Northern California in August 2010

edit: wrong photo, the one Ajahn Brahm performed was a year earlier in 2009 where he ordained 4 women as bhikkhunis with Ayya Tathaaloka as the bhikkhuni preceptor.

https://dhammawiki.com/index.php/Bhikkhuni_ordination

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Re: Bhikhuni ordination?

Post by DNS » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:28 am

Here is the correct photo from 2009:

Image

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dylanj
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Re: Bhikhuni ordination?

Post by dylanj » Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:39 am

Can I please direct you to a link anyway? It's a very good one.
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

SarathW
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Re: Bhikhuni ordination?

Post by SarathW » Sun Jan 07, 2018 7:44 am

maranadhammomhi wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 6:39 am
Can I please direct you to a link anyway? It's a very good one.
ok
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

SarathW
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Re: Bhikhuni ordination?

Post by SarathW » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:05 am

Another good link.

Ajahn Brahm on why he was excommunicated

https://sujato.wordpress.com/2009/11/07 ... municated/
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Re: Bhikhuni ordination?

Post by dylanj » Sun Jan 07, 2018 8:40 am

susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: Bhikhuni ordination?

Post by binocular » Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:46 pm

DNS wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:47 am
It's kind of complicated, but I'll try to do it in a few words.

The Theravada bhikkhuni ordination line died out in year 1017 CE in Sri Lanka. You need a double ordination of monks and nuns to ordain new nuns. Since there were no longer any nuns around, some traditionalists believe that it cannot be revived.

The other side, mostly modernists, but some traditionalists too, believe that it can and has been revived using Dharmaguptaka and Mahayana nuns to help perform the double ordination. Modernists argue that it is what the Buddha wanted (the 4 fold assembly). Now there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of Theravada bhikkhunis, so Dharmagupta and Mahayana nuns are no longer used for the double ordination. There are Theravada bhikkhunis available now who are preceptors for ordaining new bhikkhunis.
Some who are in favor of ordination for women present the issue in roundabout as such:
Women are just as entitled to monastic status as men. Therefore, there should also be bhikkhunis. The historical/traditional criteria for what is necessary to ordain a woman should not be regarded as more important than a woman's right to ordain. (Provided she fulfills all the other criteria, such as not being married, not being in debt etc..)

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Re: Bhikhuni ordination?

Post by thomaslaw » Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:42 am

binocular wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 2:46 pm
DNS wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 4:47 am
It's kind of complicated, but I'll try to do it in a few words.

The Theravada bhikkhuni ordination line died out in year 1017 CE in Sri Lanka. You need a double ordination of monks and nuns to ordain new nuns. Since there were no longer any nuns around, some traditionalists believe that it cannot be revived.

The other side, mostly modernists, but some traditionalists too, believe that it can and has been revived using Dharmaguptaka and Mahayana nuns to help perform the double ordination. Modernists argue that it is what the Buddha wanted (the 4 fold assembly). Now there are hundreds, perhaps thousands of Theravada bhikkhunis, so Dharmagupta and Mahayana nuns are no longer used for the double ordination. There are Theravada bhikkhunis available now who are preceptors for ordaining new bhikkhunis.
Some who are in favor of ordination for women present the issue in roundabout as such:
Women are just as entitled to monastic status as men. Therefore, there should also be bhikkhunis. The historical/traditional criteria for what is necessary to ordain a woman should not be regarded as more important than a woman's right to ordain. (Provided she fulfills all the other criteria, such as not being married, not being in debt etc..)
Women were not in the beginning welcome by the Buddha to ordain as nuns into his Sangha! So, it should not be an issue of women's right. It is the matter of the Sangha.

Thomas

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Re: Bhikhuni ordination?

Post by DooDoot » Tue Jan 09, 2018 6:15 am

SarathW wrote:
Sun Jan 07, 2018 3:58 am
Can someone give me what is this problem about Bhikhuni ordination in few words.
Thai Sanghas not (yet) ordain women.

More here: http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... lRgXFWWYkI

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Re: Bhikhuni ordination?

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Jan 09, 2018 7:13 am

what do you mean, thomas? gotama and the other six buddhas to my knowledge had bhikkhunī orders.
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Re: Bhikhuni ordination?

Post by manas » Sat Jan 13, 2018 6:51 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Tue Jan 09, 2018 5:42 am

Women were not in the beginning welcome by the Buddha to ordain as nuns into his Sangha! So, it should not be an issue of women's right. It is the matter of the Sangha.

Thomas
I can't find the quote offhand, but I recall reading that the Buddha was concerned for their safety (with good reason), travelling in forests alone etc; it wasn't just because they were women, that he initially said no. There were other reasons.
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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Re: Bhikhuni ordination?

Post by Zom » Sat Jan 13, 2018 7:17 am

Since there were no longer any nuns around, some traditionalists believe that it cannot be revived.
I'd say, not "some", but "almost all" traditionalists insist that theravada bhikkhuni ordination is no longer valid - well, this is why they are traditionalists -)
The other side, mostly modernists, but some traditionalists too, believe that it can and has been revived using Dharmaguptaka and Mahayana nuns to help perform the double ordination.
Dharmaguptaka/Mahayana method has great flaw in sense that if you accept such ordination, then you accept that all mahayana male monks are theravadin monks, which is... well... an absurd -)

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