I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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retrofuturist
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:48 am

Greetings,
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:36 am
Imo, young monks should not call themselves Bhante nor should be called Bhante.
Technically bhante is a term of second-person address akin to "sir", so should only be used when actually speaking to a bhikkhu, not about one.

Thus, the name "Bhante [such-and-such]" doesn't really make much sense at the best of times. Better in names to use terms like "Bhikkhu", or if the monk has been ordained long enough to warrant it, "Thera".

Metta,
Paul.. :)
"Do not force others, including children, by any means whatsoever, to adopt your views, whether by authority, threat, money, propaganda, or even education." - Ven. Thich Nhat Hanh

"The uprooting of identity is seen by the noble ones as pleasurable; but this contradicts what the whole world sees." (Snp 3.12)

"One discerns wrong view as wrong view, and right view as right view. This is one's right view." (MN 117)

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Thisperson
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Thisperson » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:05 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:48 am
Greetings,
DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:36 am
Imo, young monks should not call themselves Bhante nor should be called Bhante.
Technically bhante is a term of address akin to "sir", so should only be used when actually speaking to a bhikkhu, not about one.

Thus, the name "Bhante [such-and-such]" doesn't really make much sense at the best of times. Better in names to use terms like "Bhikkhu", or if the monk has been ordained long enough to warrant it, "Thera".

Metta,
Paul.. :)

I suppose we could still use it if talking about monks who were originally from the UK though..

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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:06 am

Stiphan wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:27 pm
There is gratification in lay life that you enumerate in your post with many examples - sensual pleasures that give much joy and satisfaction
Which sensual pleasures that give much joy and satisfaction? Thanks
Stiphan wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:27 pm
but then there is the danger as well: old age, sickness, death, the impermanence of all acquisitions, pleasures and joys, the inevitable physical and mental pain; and then there is the escape.
Are there any suttas that support this above point of view? I thought the suttas said craving & clinging were the "dangers"? Thanks
Seeing danger in clinging,
in the coming-into-play
of birth & death,
they are released from lack of clinging,
in the ending
of birth & death.
They, happy, arriving at safety,
fully unbound in the here-&-now,
having gone beyond
all animosity & danger
have escaped
all suffering & stress.

MN 130
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:12 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Thisperson » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:10 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:06 am
Stiphan wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:27 pm
There is gratification in lay life that you enumerate in your post with many examples - sensual pleasures that give much joy and satisfaction
Which sensual pleasures that give much joy and satisfaction? Thanks
Stiphan wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 3:27 pm
but then there is the danger as well: old age, sickness, death, the impermanence of all acquisitions, pleasures and joys, the inevitable physical and mental pain; and then there is the escape.
Are there any suttas that support this above point of view? I thought the suttas said craving & attachment were the "dangers"? Thanks
Seeing danger in clinging,
in the coming-into-play
of birth & death,
they are released from lack of clinging,
in the ending
of birth & death.
They, happy, arriving at safety,
fully unbound in the here-&-now,
having gone beyond
all animosity & danger
have escaped
all suffering & stress.

MN 130
This sutta speaks of the gratification, danger, and escape of sensual pleasures, as well as other things.

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/middle-l ... ndha-sutta

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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:15 am

Thisperson wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:10 am
This sutta speaks of the gratification, danger, and escape of sensual pleasures, as well as other things.

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/middle-l ... ndha-sutta
OK. Thanks.
And what, bhikkhus, is the escape...? It is the removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for.... This is the escape...

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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:16 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 12:36 am
binocular wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:01 pm
I think (novice) monks should live in isolation and not teach lays or publicy present themselves as representatives of the Dhamma...
I agree here.
binocular wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 5:01 pm
. And "Bhante Lucky"? What was up with that?
Imo, young monks should not call themselves Bhante nor should be called Bhante because in the suttas the primary person called Bhante (Lord) is the Buddha.
Then all of Sri Lanka is wrong, because Sri lankans call all monks Bhante, even when I was a Samanera I was being called Bhante. The Buddha set down before his death that any monastic who is senior to you you call Bhante, not just a very senior monastic.
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:15 pm
life itself has taught me that anytime I thought I had everything figured out, it laughed and flipped everything around on me.
I could have informed you of that because you were the 1st social-media novice I ever saw although I see others like you now, which is disconcerting in respect to your preceptors. I personally find it bizzare to see Westerners showing their novicing & ordaining on social media. It reminds me of the Christian & Islamic videos about people converting to their religions.
Life taught me that lesson well before I was even a Buddhist my friend. As for my preceptor, he is fully aware of everything I do online, as I show him and he is also online to see. He has always been a visionary when it comes to technologies ability to share the dhamma, The internet was very important to my own Buddhist spiritual practice, and likewise for many others.
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:15 pm
Regardless if you are a monastic or a lay person, there is still the noble eightfold path...
Sounds like you are proselytizing that same proselytizing that captured you. The noble eightfold path is something free from sensuality. I would imagine a person would already be dispassionate towards sensuality before ordaining.
are you trying to say that someone who follows the noble eightfold path has already become free of sensuality.. because thats downright silly, the noble eightfold path IS the path leading to the sessaion of dukkha, and craving, the path is FOR that purpose and everyone who starts down that path is not someone who has become dispassionate towards sensuality, and also there are levels of such dispassion, it is a gradual process.
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:15 pm
I hold nothing against anyone who decides to disrobe...
Either do I however I have my concerns about those senior monks like Ajahn Brahm & Sujato recruiting unsuitable applicants with their shiny advertising of jhanas & brahma realms. It was ethically disconcerting for me to see Ajahn Jag promoting/advertising the urgency in raising $2.5M to build a new monastery and then hear of him disrobing.
my preceptor, Bhante G, has had most of the people he ordained disrobe as well. In a very austere dhamayut thai forest place near me, I watched a person jump from anagarika to full bhikkhu ( when I first met him he was anagarika and I was samanera, then 7 months later he was Bhikkhu and I was still samanera) and then months later I found out he disrobed and left. I would be careful before rushing to judgment.
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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:46 am

Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:16 am
Then all of Sri Lanka is wrong, because Sri lankans call all monks Bhante, even when I was a Samanera I was being called Bhante.
Buddhism is only a recent phenomena in Sri Lanka, which required reinstatement by the Burmese Sangha.
The Buddha set down before his death that any monastic who is senior to you you call Bhante, not just a very senior monastic.
Please quote, thanks. Regardless, the issue raised on this thread was laypeople calling junior monks Bhante.
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:15 pm
As for my preceptor, he is fully aware of everything I do online, as I show him and he is also online to see. He has always been a visionary when it comes to technologies ability to share the dhamma, The internet was very important to my own Buddhist spiritual practice, and likewise for many others.
Sure. But this does not change my disconcertedness towards your preceptor. I have seen it myself before, with Asian preceptors pushing young Western monks to teach Buddhism to Westerners; with those monks eventually disrobing. The priority seems to be evangelizing Buddhism rather than developing the monks. At Wat Pananachat, I heard it is 5 or 10 years before a monks has public responsibilities.
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:15 pm
are you trying to say that someone who follows the noble eightfold path has already become free of sensuality.. because thats downright silly, the noble eightfold path IS the path leading to the cessation of dukkha, and craving, the path is FOR that purpose and everyone who starts down that path is not someone who has become dispassionate towards sensuality, and also there are levels of such dispassion, it is a gradual process.
I meant to say mostly dispassionate or disenchanted towards sensuality. I just don't see how a mind /person infatuated with sensuality will benefit from trying practise the path. For example, Gotama, Sariputta & these people were already disenchanted with sensuality before they left the household life.
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 6:15 pm
my preceptor, Bhante G, has had most of the people he ordained disrobe as well. In a very austere dhamayut thai forest place near me, I watched a person jump from anagarika to full bhikkhu ( when I first met him he was anagarika and I was samanera, then 7 months later he was Bhikkhu and I was still samanera) and then months later I found out he disrobed and left. I would be careful before rushing to judgment.
In Asia, ordaining is similar to the old Catholicism, where generally at least one son from a family would ordain. These Asian societies were/are traditional societies following traditional family values, where monks played a certain pastoral social role. Personally, I am not sure the same model is appropriate for Western Buddhism because Western Buddhism does not primarily support traditional family values but is more servicing hungry ghosts therefore the moral-authority-by-numbers-model of Asian Buddhism appears somewhat alien to the West; at least to me.

Also, to repeat, I was ethically troubled by Ajahn Jag's disrobing considering he was fund raising prior to it.
Goofaholix wrote:
Sun Dec 03, 2017 10:29 pm
That's just typical out of touch idealism.

In SE Asia temporary ordination is common. In the lineage that James ordained in it's common for a candidate to make a 5 year commitment, James exceeded that and exceeded what most Thai monks would do as ordinations would more typically range from 2 days to 3 months. It's not a betrayal it's a noble effort.

While it can be disappointing when senior teachers disrobe anyone who is putting their faith in a person (whether a monk, or teacher or not) obviously doesn't have much faith in the dhamma.
It may be idealism but the fact the Western monks are expected to ordain for 5 years appears to be a reflection of this very same idealism and is what distinguishes the Western ideal from the traditional Asian model I mentioned above.
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Dec 04, 2017 3:31 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Thisperson » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:53 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:15 am
Thisperson wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:10 am
This sutta speaks of the gratification, danger, and escape of sensual pleasures, as well as other things.

http://www.wisdompubs.org/book/middle-l ... ndha-sutta
OK. Thanks.
And what, bhikkhus, is the escape...? It is the removal of desire and lust, the abandonment of desire and lust for.... This is the escape...
Sure, but I'm curious as to why you quoted the section about escape. You were looking for sutta reference about the dangers of sensuality and other things mentioned earlier right?

These are some of the things mentioned as dangers in that sutta:
19. (ii) “And what, bhikkhus, is the danger in the case of material form? Later on one might see that same woman here at eighty, ninety, or a hundred years, aged, as crooked as a roof bracket, doubled up, supported by a walking stick, tottering, frail, her youth gone, her teeth broken, grey-haired, scanty-haired, bald, wrinkled, with limbs all blotchy. What do you think, bhikkhus? Has her former beauty and loveliness vanished and the danger become evident?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”—“Bhikkhus, this is a danger in the case of material form.

20. “Again, one might see that same woman afflicted, suffering, and gravely ill, lying fouled in her own urine and excrement, lifted up by some and set down by others. What do you think, bhikkhus? Has her former beauty and loveliness vanished and the danger become evident?”—“Yes, venerable sir.”—“Bhikkhus, this too is a danger in the case of material form.

36. (ii) “And what, bhikkhus, is the danger in the case of feelings? Feelings are impermanent, suffering, and subject to change. This is the danger in the case of feelings.

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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:57 am

Thisperson wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:53 am
Sure, but I'm curious as to why you quoted the section about escape. You were looking for sutta reference about the dangers of sensuality and other things mentioned earlier right?
The danger is obviously what is escaped. If the escape is abandoning craving & lust then obviously these are the danger. Why would a 'woman' that is not the object of craving & lust be a 'danger'? The danger appears to be the 'sign' (nimitta) of "beauty" and "loveliness" (that will vanish). "Beauty" and "loveliness" are rooted in lust & craving; they are attachments (upadana), namely, kāmupādānaṃ.

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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Thisperson » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:38 am

DooDoot wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:57 am
Thisperson wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 1:53 am
Sure, but I'm curious as to why you quoted the section about escape. You were looking for sutta reference about the dangers of sensuality and other things mentioned earlier right?
The danger is obviously what is escaped. If the escape is abandoning craving & lust then obviously these are the danger. Why would a 'woman' that is not the object of craving & lust be a 'danger'? The danger appears to be the 'sign' (nimitta) of "beauty" and "loveliness" (that will vanish). "Beauty" and "loveliness" are rooted in lust & craving; they are attachments (upadana), namely, kāmupādānaṃ.
I looked at those things as being the danger due to them being unsuitable as a refuge. The escape being renouncing that which is unsuitable as a refuge.

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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by DooDoot » Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:51 am

Thisperson wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 2:38 am
I looked at those things as being the danger due to them being unsuitable as a refuge. The escape being renouncing that which is unsuitable as a refuge.
It is written the escape is renouncing craving & lust &, naturally, renouncing of objects of craving & lust.

Originally, I questioned the following post, which appeared to be providing grounds for ordination, which I sense are inadequate if there is still the belief sensual pleasures can provide satisfaction. I sounds like practising for some future benefit rather than for a present benefit.
but then there is the danger as well: old age, sickness, death, the impermanence of all acquisitions, pleasures and joys, the inevitable physical and mental pain; and then there is the escape.

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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by JamesTheGiant » Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:32 am

Off topic! :offtopic:
Go start a new thread to argue about whatever you want,

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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Polar Bear » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:04 am

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:33 pm
Thank you for sharing, I enjoyed reading your post. It sounds like you've learned alot about your goals in life and I'm sure your monastic experience was very valuable for you even though you decided to pursue other things.

Your dream of living on a sailboat sounds awesome!!! I wish you the best of luck in finding yourself a good boat and having many a good journey with it. I'm curious, do you plan to sail long voyages to other continents ever? Or perhaps sailing around to different places each summer when you're not teaching?

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Mr Man » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:10 am

polarbear101 wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:04 am
JamesTheGiant wrote:
Sat Dec 02, 2017 9:33 pm
Thank you for sharing, I enjoyed reading your post. It sounds like you've learned alot about your goals in life and I'm sure your monastic experience was very valuable for you even though you decided to pursue other things.

Your dream of living on a sailboat sounds awesome!!! I wish you the best of luck in finding yourself a good boat and having many a good journey with it. I'm curious, do you plan to sail long voyages to other continents ever? Or perhaps sailing around to different places each summer when you're not teaching?

:anjali:
:twothumbsup: :twothumbsup: :twothumbsup:

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Re: I disrobed and returned to "normal" life

Post by Thisperson » Mon Dec 04, 2017 10:16 am

JamesTheGiant wrote:
Mon Dec 04, 2017 6:32 am
Off topic! :offtopic:
Go start a new thread to argue about whatever you want,
Good point. Thanks for sharing your experience here. :anjali:

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