A woman reporting a monk?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
Post Reply
binocular
Posts: 4058
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

A woman reporting a monk?

Post by binocular » Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:28 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 2:00 am
samseva wrote:
Wed Nov 15, 2017 11:13 pm
By that, could it be that the possible reason why kukkucca is described in the Vinaya as occurring before is because shame (kukkucca) can arise due to only having considered doing the unwholesome action (but not having done it)?
Yes. Or merely being presented with an opportunity:
Soon afterwards some female lay followers saw some monks and said to them, “Venerables, please give a teaching.”

“It’s not allowable for us to teach women.”

“Please just teach five or six sentences. Even with that much it’s possible to understand the Teaching.”

“It’s not allowable for us to teach women.” And being worried [about doing wrong] (kukkuccāyantā), they did not teach them.

Then those female lay followers complained and criticized them, “How can they not teach us when asked?”

The monks heard the complaints of those female lay followers, and they informed the Master. Soon afterwards the Master gave a teaching and addressed the monks, “Monks, I allow you to teach five or six sentences to a woman. And so, monks, this training rule should be recited thus:

‘If a monk gives a teaching of more than five or six sentences to a woman, he commits an offense entailing confession.’”
Does a woman have any recourse when a monk transgresses this rule?

I'm asking because it has been my experience that there are monks who will privately speak with women, aggressively appointing themselves as their teachers, and, in my opinion and experience, abuse their monastic position of power. This can have a very negative effect on the woman's faith in the Buddha.


Thank you.

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 3774
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Cremation Ground, Phrao District, Chiangmai

Re: A woman reporting a monk?

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:33 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 11:28 am
Does a woman have any recourse when a monk transgresses this rule?
The part that I quoted was the second stage in the evolution of this rule. In the third and final stage the rule becomes:
7th pācittiya rule wrote:‘If a monk gives a teaching of more than five or six sentences to a woman, except in the presence of a man who understands, he commits an offense entailing confession.’

https://suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-bu-vb-pc7
So if a monk teaches a woman, speaking more than the permitted number of sentences and without another male present, then clearly he breaks the above rule.

As to whether a woman has any recourse when a monk breaks it, in theory she does, under the second of the two Aniyata rules. Whether this will mean much in practice will depend on how seriously Vinaya is taken in the tradition the monk belongs to.

DooDoot
Posts: 550
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2017 11:06 pm

Re: A woman reporting a monk?

Post by DooDoot » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:40 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:33 pm
So if a monk teaches a woman, speaking more than the permitted number of sentences and without another male present, then clearly he breaks the above rule.
So at meditation retreats, where monks have lengthy private interviews with women (which may be visible but not audible publicly), this must breach the Vinaya. Thanks

binocular
Posts: 4058
Joined: Sat Jan 17, 2009 11:13 pm

Re: A woman reporting a monk?

Post by binocular » Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:58 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:33 pm
The part that I quoted was the second stage in the evolution of this rule. In the third and final stage the rule becomes:
7th pācittiya rule wrote:‘If a monk gives a teaching of more than five or six sentences to a woman, except in the presence of a man who understands, he commits an offense entailing confession.’

https://suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-bu-vb-pc7
So if a monk teaches a woman, speaking more than the permitted number of sentences and without another male present, then clearly he breaks the above rule.
How does this apply to online settings that technologically allow private messaging?

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 3774
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Cremation Ground, Phrao District, Chiangmai

Re: A woman reporting a monk?

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:15 pm

binocular wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 12:58 pm
How does this apply to online settings that technologically allow private messaging?
I don't know. Almost certainly there'll be differences of opinion among Vinaya scholars. If it hasn't already started, I expect sooner or later there'll be committees of Vinaya scholars holding meetings to discuss how such and such Vinaya rule is to be applied in online interactions. Maybe after some months or some years rulings will be issued.

User avatar
Goofaholix
Posts: 2963
Joined: Sun Nov 15, 2009 3:49 am
Location: New Zealand

Re: A woman reporting a monk?

Post by Goofaholix » Thu Nov 16, 2017 10:04 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Thu Nov 16, 2017 4:15 pm
I don't know. Almost certainly there'll be differences of opinion among Vinaya scholars. If it hasn't already started, I expect sooner or later there'll be committees of Vinaya scholars holding meetings to discuss how such and such Vinaya rule is to be applied in online interactions. Maybe after some months or some years rulings will be issued.
Considering these days people start romances and organise dates through electronic communication the same rules that apply to face to face communication should apply to private conversations or teaching a women by electronic means. It would be easy enough to cc another appropriate person as a "chaperone".
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.” ― Ajahn Chah

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests