Regarding paying off ALL of ones debts first.

[samseva]

is there some spiritual reason i should care about that debt?

[...]

if i ordained i don't think i'd unordain; i know it happens, but i don't have anything left for this world really

What if your visa isn't renewed because your bank contacted Thai immigration?

Did you read this part of Ven. Dhammanando's post:

[...] bhikkhu (or goes into debt after ordaining) and then his creditors come chasing after him, if he can't or won't pay them, then under one of the Sangha Acts he would be forced to disrobe.

Like I previously said, you're not giving yourself options. Even if you were to ordain, you'd essentially have the constant worry of getting caught. And if you were to get caught, you'd be back to square one, but with the added debt from all the interest, and a destroyed credit rating.

[Dhammarakkhito]

can you not get a permanent visa how does this work

there is not hiding, there is simply not working and therefore not having to make payments. you can't be imprisoned or prohibited from travel for not paying your debt in usa

[Dhammanando]

can you not get a permanent visa how does this work

In Thailand foreign monks have to apply for a visa extension once a year. The application requires a sponsorship letter from one's abbot, and a form signed by the abbot, the head monk of the district and the head monk of the province. It's usually fairly routine though once in a while you might run into an awkward monk who doesn't want to sign the form or who imposes some extra bureaucratic conditions of his own, like demanding that you provide him with letters of approval from the head monk of the sub-district or the village headman or the sheriff of the local police. Monks are also required to report to the immigration police once every three months.

At the age of fifty you'll be eligible to apply for a retirement visa which is permanent, though you'll still need to report to the immigration police regularly.

[Dhammarakkhito]

oh, so do you have to have good credit to get a visa

[Dhammanando]

oh, so do you have to have good credit to get a visa

No, you have to have some high-ranking Thai monks who are willing to back your application. But if it ever became public knowledge that a foreign monk was being sued by a creditor, then he would have a hard time finding anyone willing to back him. And if the plaintiff's case seemed strong enough for a court to accept it, then the monk would be required to disrobe even before the case was heard. The Thais don't want to see monks appearing as respondents or defendants in a court room.

[Dhammarakkhito]

why thailand then. why not sri lanka, myanmar, laos, cambodia,...
if one had already defaulted on their debt and been sued how would it come to public attention or be relevant in any way. sorry if i don't understand... the workings of the world usually just piss me off i would like to keep following dhamma and let things fix themselves

[Dhammanando]

why thailand then. why not sri lanka, myanmar, laos, cambodia,...

Regarding the issue of ordaining debtors, I'm afraid I don't know how matters stand in these countries.

if one had already defaulted on their debt and been sued how would it come to public attention or be relevant in any way.

I didn't say that it necessarily would. I was just describing what would happen in Thailand if it did.

In general I think that it would amount to a pretty bad start in monastic life if one ordained in the full knowledge that one had debts of a kind that one could be sued for. As for student debts of the kind where repayment is only required when one is engaged in paid employment and where there is no requirement to pay if one is not earning, these seem to be something of a grey area. As far as I know debts of this kind didn't have any counterpart in the Buddha's time. I think in Thailand most abbots probably would accept a man in this state, but whether it would be agreeable to the man's own conscience is another story.

[binocular]

if one had already defaulted on their debt and been sued how would it come to public attention or be relevant in any way. sorry if i don't understand...

It seems that not returning what was loaned to you is, at least in some cases, a kind of theft.

[Dhammarakkhito]

i don't think it is

[samseva]

[...]

Sovatthika, from one of your earlier posts, it sounds like your intention is to ordain for life. When you put this into perspective, 4 or so years spent to pay off debts is a very small amount of years for a different way of life that will last maybe as long as 60-70 years.

If you are to evade your debts and ordain, will you not spend those months and years with constant fear of being forced to disrobe and of being deported? Of having to return to the US and of being exactly in the same situation you find yourself right now, of having to pay $20 000 of debt, but with thousands more in interest?

And consider the opposite....

Wouldn't it be better to spend a few years paying off your debt, to ordain with a clear conscience and to live as a monastic without constant fear of being deported? You could also use those few years you are taking to pay your debts to take care of and spend time with your mother, as well as studying and practicing Dhamma—and even improve your back/physical health.

4-5 years out of 60-70 years is a very small amount of years. And paying your debts might be a lot easier than you think. There are a number of very good blogs and books on getting your finances in order and paying your debts (I'm reading one right now).

Here is a blog: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/03/ ... fanciness/
(it tackles debt in a humourous way, as you can see by the name of the blog )

Anyway, I don't think there is much more I can say to try to convince you otherwise, so I'll leave it at that.

Good luck.

Sovatthika, if you are serious about efficient solutions/actually paying off your debt, I would look into debt consolidation. You might also want to talk to a financial advisor (the investment might be worth it). You mentioned that you have approximately $20,000 in debt. If you only pay back around $5000 per year, you will have paid it completely within 4-5 years.

If your plan is to ordain, then to some degree, your expenses should be extremely low if you live similarly. You would need to have income, obviously, but that would be the way to go about it. You could get your health back on track during that time as well. Anyway, a financial advisor could probably advise you better.

Take care.

[Dhammarakkhito]

alright, thank you. hopefully by the time i'm actually ready to ordain it will be paid
if not, i don't want to let it keep me from ordaining. done all over again, i surely wouldn't have gotten myself into this mess; intention matters i think

[samseva]

alright, thank you. hopefully by the time i'm actually ready to ordain it will be paid
if not, i don't want to let it keep me from ordaining. done all over again, i surely wouldn't have gotten myself into this mess; intention matters i think

While paying debts is not as difficult as many would think, it also isn't easy—and it doesn't happen overnight/quickly. It takes consistent effort, as well as habit/lifestyle changes.

So don't waste time; starting to plan and tackle that lump of debt as soon as possible will be a really good thing.

[Ceisiwr]

How would this apply to UK student debt? Here we take out loans but if we stop working the payments stop with no penalties. If after 30 years it’s not paid off then the remaining balance is wiped. They never come chasing for the debt. In this circumstance if I were to ordain would I need to clear the debt or would this type of debt be ignored?

[markandeya]

i don't think it is

Yeah its not, banks are the biggest thieves and they are covered by insurance. In ancient lore leaving debts was forbidden because the debts were usually transferred to the family to pay off, and that would cause them suffering to pay it off,and thats not fair on family members, its different today.

Go to India and some of the sadhus there, they would probably laugh and make you tea if you ripped the western system off, and ask you if you have any spare change left

But do you best, there maybe ways to declare some kinda bankruptcy, if its over a long time and regular payments have been made its not theft, you probably took money which they offered and had all good intentions to pay but couldnt because you became broke, we cant see into the future. If its done fast over a short period then they might get suspicious and you could land in trouble.

[Bhikkhu_Jayasara]

i don't think it is

Yeah its not, banks are the biggest thieves and they are covered by insurance. In ancient lore leaving debts was forbidden because the debts were usually transferred to the family to pay off, and that would cause them suffering to pay it off,and thats not fair on family members, its different today.

Go to India and some of the sadhus there, they would probably laugh and make you tea if you ripped the western system off, and ask you if you have any spare change left

But do you best, there maybe ways to declare some kinda bankruptcy, if its over a long time and regular payments have been made its not theft, you probably took money which they offered and had all good intentions to pay but couldnt because you became broke, we cant see into the future. If its done fast over a short period then they might get suspicious and you could land in trouble.

so because you think someone is a thief... it justifies reneging on your responsibilities.. I see. I would agree with you only in one situation, that a gun was put to your head and you were forced to borrow money you knew you were going to have to pay back.

I find it interesting how much entitlement there is in this thread regarding debt and ordination. I still have about 7 more years before I can ordain anyone, so me having to take this into consideration is a bit of a ways off yet. but if someone comes to me wanting to ordain with the kinds of attitudes i'm seeing here, it would never happen. This is just not the right mindset to want to move towards ordination, and even if you think it wouldn't affect you now, I suspect eventually it would be heavy on your conscious if your practice progresses and even the more subtle actions become important.

Ordination is not a right, there are a variety of things that bar people from being able to ordain, not all of it may seem "fair" in modern society, but life itself is not fair. And as Bhante/Ajahn stated before, it may still be a "legal" ordination , with the preceptor taking an infraction, but i would say, is that how you would want to begin your monastic life?

If you are young and the debt seems overwhelming, I can understand, but if you set yourself a goal of ordination and are serious around it, that will drive you to live in such a way so that your debt is slowly attenuated. Maybe you then realize you didn't really want to ordain, but were dreaming of some kind of escape, or maybe you don't ordain until you are in your 30s like me, but you can do so with a clear conscious, knowing there is not even a small thing that can hold you back.