Regarding paying off ALL of ones debts first.

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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samseva
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Re: Regarding paying off ALL of ones debts first.

Post by samseva » Wed Oct 25, 2017 10:31 pm

Sovatthika wrote:
Wed Oct 25, 2017 4:38 am
is there some spiritual reason i should care about that debt?

[...]

if i ordained i don't think i'd unordain; i know it happens, but i don't have anything left for this world really
What if your visa isn't renewed because your bank contacted Thai immigration?

Did you read this part of Ven. Dhammanando's post:
Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 9:19 am
[...] bhikkhu (or goes into debt after ordaining) and then his creditors come chasing after him, if he can't or won't pay them, then under one of the Sangha Acts he would be forced to disrobe.
Like I previously said, you're not giving yourself options. Even if you were to ordain, you'd essentially have the constant worry of getting caught. And if you were to get caught, you'd be back to square one, but with the added debt from all the interest, and a destroyed credit rating.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Regarding paying off ALL of ones debts first.

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:05 am

can you not get a permanent visa how does this work

there is not hiding, there is simply not working and therefore not having to make payments. you can't be imprisoned or prohibited from travel for not paying your debt in usa
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Dhammanando
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Re: Regarding paying off ALL of ones debts first.

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:02 am

Sovatthika wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 2:05 am
can you not get a permanent visa how does this work
In Thailand foreign monks have to apply for a visa extension once a year. The application requires a sponsorship letter from one's abbot, and a form signed by the abbot, the head monk of the district and the head monk of the province. It's usually fairly routine though once in a while you might run into an awkward monk who doesn't want to sign the form or who imposes some extra bureaucratic conditions of his own, like demanding that you provide him with letters of approval from the head monk of the sub-district or the village headman or the sheriff of the local police. Monks are also required to report to the immigration police once every three months.

At the age of fifty you'll be eligible to apply for a retirement visa which is permanent, though you'll still need to report to the immigration police regularly.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Regarding paying off ALL of ones debts first.

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:23 am

oh, so do you have to have good credit to get a visa
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: Regarding paying off ALL of ones debts first.

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Oct 26, 2017 5:35 am

Sovatthika wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 3:23 am
oh, so do you have to have good credit to get a visa
No, you have to have some high-ranking Thai monks who are willing to back your application. But if it ever became public knowledge that a foreign monk was being sued by a creditor, then he would have a hard time finding anyone willing to back him. And if the plaintiff's case seemed strong enough for a court to accept it, then the monk would be required to disrobe even before the case was heard. The Thais don't want to see monks appearing as respondents or defendants in a court room.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Regarding paying off ALL of ones debts first.

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:39 am

why thailand then. why not sri lanka, myanmar, laos, cambodia,...
if one had already defaulted on their debt and been sued how would it come to public attention or be relevant in any way. sorry if i don't understand... the workings of the world usually just piss me off i would like to keep following dhamma and let things fix themselves
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

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Re: Regarding paying off ALL of ones debts first.

Post by Dhammanando » Thu Oct 26, 2017 8:34 am

Sovatthika wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:39 am
why thailand then. why not sri lanka, myanmar, laos, cambodia,...
Regarding the issue of ordaining debtors, I'm afraid I don't know how matters stand in these countries.
Sovatthika wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:39 am
if one had already defaulted on their debt and been sued how would it come to public attention or be relevant in any way.
I didn't say that it necessarily would. I was just describing what would happen in Thailand if it did.

In general I think that it would amount to a pretty bad start in monastic life if one ordained in the full knowledge that one had debts of a kind that one could be sued for. As for student debts of the kind where repayment is only required when one is engaged in paid employment and where there is no requirement to pay if one is not earning, these seem to be something of a grey area. As far as I know debts of this kind didn't have any counterpart in the Buddha's time. I think in Thailand most abbots probably would accept a man in this state, but whether it would be agreeable to the man's own conscience is another story.

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binocular
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Re: Regarding paying off ALL of ones debts first.

Post by binocular » Thu Oct 26, 2017 6:01 pm

Sovatthika wrote:
Thu Oct 26, 2017 7:39 am
if one had already defaulted on their debt and been sued how would it come to public attention or be relevant in any way. sorry if i don't understand...
It seems that not returning what was loaned to you is, at least in some cases, a kind of theft.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Regarding paying off ALL of ones debts first.

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:08 am

i don't think it is
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

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samseva
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Re: Regarding paying off ALL of ones debts first.

Post by samseva » Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:48 am

Sovatthika wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 4:08 am
[...]
Sovatthika, from one of your earlier posts, it sounds like your intention is to ordain for life. When you put this into perspective, 4 or so years spent to pay off debts is a very small amount of years for a different way of life that will last maybe as long as 60-70 years.

If you are to evade your debts and ordain, will you not spend those months and years with constant fear of being forced to disrobe and of being deported? Of having to return to the US and of being exactly in the same situation you find yourself right now, of having to pay $20 000 of debt, but with thousands more in interest?

And consider the opposite....

Wouldn't it be better to spend a few years paying off your debt, to ordain with a clear conscience and to live as a monastic without constant fear of being deported? You could also use those few years you are taking to pay your debts to take care of and spend time with your mother, as well as studying and practicing Dhamma—and even improve your back/physical health.

4-5 years out of 60-70 years is a very small amount of years. And paying your debts might be a lot easier than you think. There are a number of very good blogs and books on getting your finances in order and paying your debts (I'm reading one right now).

Here is a blog: http://www.mrmoneymustache.com/2012/03/ ... fanciness/
(it tackles debt in a humourous way, as you can see by the name of the blog :smile: )

Anyway, I don't think there is much more I can say to try to convince you otherwise, so I'll leave it at that.

Good luck.

samseva wrote:
Tue Oct 24, 2017 7:41 pm
Sovatthika, if you are serious about efficient solutions/actually paying off your debt, I would look into debt consolidation. You might also want to talk to a financial advisor (the investment might be worth it). You mentioned that you have approximately $20,000 in debt. If you only pay back around $5000 per year, you will have paid it completely within 4-5 years.

If your plan is to ordain, then to some degree, your expenses should be extremely low if you live similarly. You would need to have income, obviously, but that would be the way to go about it. You could get your health back on track during that time as well. Anyway, a financial advisor could probably advise you better.

Take care.

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: Regarding paying off ALL of ones debts first.

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:18 am

alright, thank you. hopefully by the time i'm actually ready to ordain it will be paid
if not, i don't want to let it keep me from ordaining. done all over again, i surely wouldn't have gotten myself into this mess; intention matters i think
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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samseva
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Re: Regarding paying off ALL of ones debts first.

Post by samseva » Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:04 pm

Sovatthika wrote:
Fri Oct 27, 2017 8:18 am
alright, thank you. hopefully by the time i'm actually ready to ordain it will be paid
if not, i don't want to let it keep me from ordaining. done all over again, i surely wouldn't have gotten myself into this mess; intention matters i think
While paying debts is not as difficult as many would think, it also isn't easy—and it doesn't happen overnight/quickly. It takes consistent effort, as well as habit/lifestyle changes.

So don't waste time; starting to plan and tackle that lump of debt as soon as possible will be a really good thing.

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