I think I have been defending the statement about regularly practising virtues, meditation, and insight rather well, as I have given examples from suttas where exactly this was happening. As for Bahiya, he did not have time to practice regularly because he was killed by a cow almost immediately after his conversation with the Buddha. He was enlightened due to listening. There is no reason why a person (like those in the suttas) should not have gained a sound mind by means of practice, which they maintain when the body sickens, ages, or is injured. Indeed, there is the possibility that sickness provides an enhanced opportunity for practice, especially by means of insight and relinquishment. As Upasika Kee Nanayon puts it in one of my favourite dhamma talks:santa100 wrote:Since you have not been able to defend your original statement: ""Yes, of course is is possible to attain a sound mind without regularly practice Virtues, Meditation, and Insight"?", I'm not sure if I should ask you to defend more wild claims of yours from above. Not able to find the path to arahantship is one thing, claiming that "he has no time for regular practices" is quite a wild claim. Were you there with Bahiya and saw exactly what he did 2,500 years ago? So, I have no choice but to ask you, beside providing the proof to your original statement, to back up your claim below:Sam Vara wrote:Bahiya has practised according to the Dhamma, but not immediately before he meets the Buddha. He is not following a path that could lead him to become an arahant. And he has no time for the regular practices which you specify, before being killed. He hears the Buddha, and by understanding is liberated. And why should this not occur for anyone whose parami are sufficiently well-developed, whatever their physical condition? And likewise, a sound mind - capable of making progress, keeping the precepts, gaining concentrated states, and gaining insight - why should this mind not manifest in a sick or dying body? It's perfectly possible for the progress to have been made while the body was sound, and not to be lost when the body becomes unsound. Sickness and decrepitude and injury affect one khanda, but don't have to affect the mental khandas.Sam Vara wrote:He[Bahiya] has no time for the regular practices which I[santa100] specify.
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai ... ddose.htmlPeople lying in bed ill are lucky because they have the opportunity to do nothing but contemplate stress and pain...So see yourself as lucky. Lying here, dealing with the disease, you have the opportunity to practice insight meditation with every moment. It doesn't matter whether you're here in the hospital or at home...You should see yourself as fortunate, that you're lying here ill, contemplating pain, for you have the opportunity to develop the Path in full measure, gaining insight and letting things go. Nobody has a better opportunity than what you have right now. People running around, engaged in their affairs: Even if they say their minds are disengaged, they're really no match for you. A person lying ill in bed has the opportunity to develop insight with every in-and-out breath. It's a sign that you haven't wasted your birth as a human being, you know, because you're practicing the teachings of the Lord Buddha to the point where you gain clear knowledge into the true nature of things in and of themselves.
Similarly, Ajahn Chah thought that the elderly, sick, and dying could develop insight:
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/chah/bl111.htmlToday I have brought nothing material of any substance to offer you, only Dhamma, the teachings of the Lord Buddha. Listen well. You should understand that even the Buddha himself, with his great store of accumulated virtue, could not avoid physical death. When he reached old age he relinquished his body and let go of its heavy burden. Now you too must learn to be satisfied with the many years you've already depended on your body. You should feel that it's enough.
You can compare it to household utensils you've had for a long time — your cups, saucers, plates and so on. When you first had them they were clean and shining, but now after using them for so long, they're starting to wear out. Some are already broken, some have disappeared and those that are left are deteriorating; they have no stable form, and it's their nature to be like that. Your body is the same way — it's been continually changing right from the day you were born, through childhood and youth, until now it's reached old age. You must accept that. The Buddha said that conditions (sankharas), whether they are internal conditions, bodily conditions, or external conditions, are not-self, their nature is to change. Contemplate this truth until you see it clearly.
So they are both also talking about soundness of mind - sufficient to realise insight - in an unsound body. And why should that not be so? Body is one thing, mind another.