Is a mnonk who is not Sotapanna considered an outsider?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Is a mnonk who is not Sotapanna considered an outsider?

Post by SarathW »

Is a mnonk who is not Sotapanna considered an outsider?
It appears stream entry is so common among monks.
Even if the monk is ordained if s/he is not a stream enterer he considered a run-of-the-mill person.
Is this what meant by the following Sutta?
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On one occasion the Blessed One was staying among the Sakyans near Kapilavatthu in Nigrodha's Park. Then Nandiya the Sakyan went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, the disciple of the noble ones in whom the factors of stream entry are altogether & in every way lacking: Is he called a disciple of the noble ones who lives heedlessly?"

"Nandiya, the person in whom the factors of stream entry are altogether & in every way lacking I call an outsider, one who stands in the faction of the run-of-the-mill. But as to how a disciple of the noble ones lives heedlessly and heedfully, listen well and pay attention, I will speak"


http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... .than.html
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
User156079
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Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:17 am

Re: Is a mnonk who is not Sotapanna considered an outsider?

Post by User156079 »

I think this Sutta is wrongly translated by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 0-piya.pdf
Check out this paper.

fwiw i am inclined to think that this Sutta is litterally about an Ariya savaka
User156079
Posts: 1019
Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:17 am

Re: Is a mnonk who is not Sotapanna considered an outsider?

Post by User156079 »

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Last edited by User156079 on Thu Apr 27, 2017 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
User156079
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Joined: Thu Nov 12, 2015 4:17 am

Re: Is a mnonk who is not Sotapanna considered an outsider?

Post by User156079 »

My personal opinion of the Sutta is that if Limbs of Stream-Entry are never completely absent in a Sotapanna but he can become content with erified confidence and give himself over to negligence, indulging in sensuality, thus abandoning the goal. At that time is he dwelling heedlessly he does not attain fruition or rapture from jhana, thus dwelling in pain.
Last edited by User156079 on Thu Apr 27, 2017 11:04 am, edited 3 times in total.
SarathW
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Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2012 2:49 am

Re: Is a mnonk who is not Sotapanna considered an outsider?

Post by SarathW »

User156079 wrote:I think this Sutta is wrongly translated by Ven. Thanissaro Bhikkhu.
http://dharmafarer.org/wordpress/wp-con ... 0-piya.pdf
Check out this paper.

fwiw i am inclined to think that this Sutta is litterally about an Ariya savaka
Thank you R111
It is a very detailed essay.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Derek
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Joined: Wed Aug 28, 2013 12:31 pm

Re: Is a mnonk who is not Sotapanna considered an outsider?

Post by Derek »

This sutta is referring to the relatively late definition of the factors conducive to stream-entry, and not to stream-entry itself.
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