Is caffeinated tea and/or coffee permitted at most Theravada temples? Are monks allowed to drink it or is it only allowed for lay people?
Sorry if this has been posted before! I searched and couldn't find one asking specifically about monastic regulations.
Tea and coffee at temples
Tea and coffee at temples
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
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Re: Tea and coffee at temples
There is no rule against coffee or tea. Some health conscious people are going away from too much caffeine but there is no Vinaya or Buddhist rule against consuming them. Caffeine is a stimulant, but a mild one and is fine in moderation, imo.
See also: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=27229
See also: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=27229
Re: Tea and coffee at temples
Tea and coffee are common in temples.
The monk in my local temple always offer me tea and coffee when I visit him.
The monk in my local temple always offer me tea and coffee when I visit him.
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
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Re: Tea and coffee at temples
In most Thai and Sri Lankan temples they are permitted to monks and laity alike. In some Burmese temples tea is not permitted after midday for monks or for laity observing the eight precepts. The reason is that it's considered to be a food rather than a medicine because of the Burmese practice of fermenting tea leaves and eating them.zan wrote:Is caffeinated tea and/or coffee permitted at most Theravada temples? Are monks allowed to drink it or is it only allowed for lay people?
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.
“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.
“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
Re: Tea and coffee at temples
Tea and coffee really mess with my mind, that's why I avoid them.
I can't imagine what it would be like to not be susceptible to them in that way, the way so many people seem to be unsusceptible to them, including monastics. So this topic brings up for me a lot of questions about meditation, virtue, and belonging to a Buddhist community.
I can't imagine what it would be like to not be susceptible to them in that way, the way so many people seem to be unsusceptible to them, including monastics. So this topic brings up for me a lot of questions about meditation, virtue, and belonging to a Buddhist community.
Hic Rhodus, hic salta!
Re: Tea and coffee at temples
Thank you sir.David N. Snyder wrote:There is no rule against coffee or tea. Some health conscious people are going away from too much caffeine but there is no Vinaya or Buddhist rule against consuming them. Caffeine is a stimulant, but a mild one and is fine in moderation, imo.
See also: https://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=27229
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Re: Tea and coffee at temples
Thank you. This is what I assumed.SarathW wrote:Tea and coffee are common in temples.
The monk in my local temple always offer me tea and coffee when I visit him.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Re: Tea and coffee at temples
Thank you Venerable. Very interesting! I have heard of many fermented foods but never tea leaves. I wonder if they are tasty?Dhammanando wrote:In most Thai and Sri Lankan temples they are permitted to monks and laity alike. In some Burmese temples tea is not permitted after midday for monks or for laity observing the eight precepts. The reason is that it's considered to be a food rather than a medicine because of the Burmese practice of fermenting tea leaves and eating them.zan wrote:Is caffeinated tea and/or coffee permitted at most Theravada temples? Are monks allowed to drink it or is it only allowed for lay people?
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Re: Tea and coffee at temples
I think black tea is fermented.
Green tea is not fermented.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6yiKKXRs2o
Green tea is not fermented.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m6yiKKXRs2o
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”
Re: Tea and coffee at temples
Oh wait, did I misunderstand? I assumed tea fermented to be eaten as a food would be a process more akin to kim chi. Does it simply mean oxidized, as in standard oxidized black tea? Or is it literally fermented, like kim chi, yogurt, kombucha etc. where microorganisms live in it and develop new flavors?SarathW wrote:I think black tea is fermented.
Green tea is not fermented.
I was under the assumption that black tea is oxidized by letting it be exposed to air and fermentation was a different process involving microorganisms living on a product in a moist environment. So oxidized tea is black tea, pu erh is fermented tea? But what fermented tea is a food? Clearly I'm missing something.
EDIT:
This is what I was picturing, from wiki page on fermented tea:
"Edible pickled tea
Though the early history of tea is unclear, it has been established that for centuries people have chewed tea leaves. Few peoples today continue to consume tea by chewing or eating. In northern Thailand, a pickled tea product called miang is chewed as a stimulant. Steamed tea leaves are kept pressed into sealed bamboo baskets until the anaerobic fermentation produces a compact cake with the desired flavor. The fermentation takes four to seven days for young leaves and about a year for mature leaves. Miang is related to the Thai and Lao street snack Miang kham.
The Shan people of Myanmar also consume a pickled tea known as lahpet. After fermentation, the tea is eaten as a vegetable.
A similar pickled tea is eaten by the Blang people of Xishuangbanna in Yunnan, China, on the border with Myanmar and Laos. The tea, known locally as miam and by the Chinese as suancha, is first packed into bamboo tubes, then buried and allowed to ferment before eating."
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
- Dhammanando
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Re: Tea and coffee at temples
I've never tried the Burmese product.zan wrote:Very interesting! I have heard of many fermented foods but never tea leaves. I wonder if they are tasty?
For three years I lived in a Northern Thai mountain village where it was too high to grow rice and so the main crop was mieng — green tea that's munched like chewing gum with a bit of salt. Despite long and frequent exposure to it, I was never able to acquire a taste for it. To me it's just unbelievably bitter and horrible.
Rūpehi bhikkhave arūpā santatarā.
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.
“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
Arūpehi nirodho santataro ti.
“Bhikkhus, the formless is more peaceful than the form realms.
Cessation is more peaceful than the formless realms.”
(Santatarasutta, Iti 73)
Re: Tea and coffee at temples
Bhante, they could learn something from the Chinese and the great dishes they can whip up with green tea leaves like when I was in Hángzhōu's famed and prized lóng jǐng green tea plantation & village areas.For three years I lived in a Northern Thai mountain village where it was too high to grow rice and so the main crop was mieng — green tea that's munched like chewing gum with a bit of salt. Despite long and frequent exposure to it, I was never able to acquire a taste for it. To me it's just unbelievably bitter and horrible.
Re: Tea and coffee at temples
Thank you Venerable. I was imagining it tasting like kim chi for some reason ha ha! That makes more sense, I have gotten loose leaf tea in my mouth plenty of times by mistake and it is indeed quite bitter and it makes sense that fermenting it would not change this.Dhammanando wrote:I've never tried the Burmese product.zan wrote:Very interesting! I have heard of many fermented foods but never tea leaves. I wonder if they are tasty?
For three years I lived in a Northern Thai mountain village where it was too high to grow rice and so the main crop was mieng — green tea that's munched like chewing gum with a bit of salt. Despite long and frequent exposure to it, I was never able to acquire a taste for it. To me it's just unbelievably bitter and horrible.
Assume all of my words on dhamma could be incorrect. Seek an arahant for truth.
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
"If we base ourselves on the Pali Nikayas, then we should be compelled to conclude that Buddhism is realistic. There is no explicit denial anywhere of the external world. Nor is there any positive evidence to show that the world is mind-made or simply a projection of subjective thoughts. That Buddhism recognizes the extra-mental existence of matter and the external world is clearly suggested by the texts. Throughout the discourses it is the language of realism that one encounters.
-Y. Karunadasa
Re: Tea and coffee at temples
I'm a monastic and can relate to this. I don't avoid them completely but had to learn to keep the consumption of coffee very low and controlled. The stimulant of caffeine definitely makes me more susceptible or sensitive to irritability/orneriness, actually my nickname for the stuff is 'angry water' I found this to occur in me at noticeable levels after exceeding roughly 300 mg of caffeine consumption over a two hour period. Or to put another way, it doesn't cause irritation but whenever I have to deal with irritation (that would have already arisen from inappropriate attention), if I had recently consumed the aforementioned level of caffeine, it would be harder to deal with (restrain mental proliferation),binocular wrote:Tea and coffee really mess with my mind, that's why I avoid them.
I can't imagine what it would be like to not be susceptible to them in that way, the way so many people seem to be unsusceptible to them, including monastics. So this topic brings up for me a lot of questions about meditation, virtue, and belonging to a Buddhist community.
I would consume 200-300 mg (i quite enjoy coffee), which is within the safe threshold for me, if it wasn't for the other downside- the comedown, it's very subtle at those levels, but noticeable enough. Which would always happen right around the time I have great opportunity to meditate (after morning chores and before dana "food offering").
So, I make it a point to consume only 90-130 mg in the morning (I am still training to wake up at 4:30 AM, and go to bed between 9 -10 PM.)
And that's it.
I don't drink soda, anymore (in lay life soda was my main mixer when consuming liquor)
And at 5 PM questions and discussion with the Abbott I'll partake in a cup of decaf.
This has been a good adjustment I found.
This vassa period I'll be in the kuti in the woods without immediate proximity to a source of the stuff so will just go without, along with this laptop.
Regards,
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"Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha’s Teaching." - Nanavira Thera (1920-1965)
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"Only in a vertical view, straight down into the abyss of his own personal existence, is a man capable of apprehending the perilous insecurity of his situation; and only a man who does apprehend this is prepared to listen to the Buddha’s Teaching." - Nanavira Thera (1920-1965)
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Re: Tea and coffee at temples
The element is responsible for bringing the water to a boil. When you switch on the kettle, the element heats up and brings the water to boil. ... In many Anex electric kettles, the element is hidden inside the base of the kettle so that it doesn't come in contact with the water.