[Study] Rate of disrobing by western monastics

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Mr Man
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Re: [Study] Rate of disrobing by western monastics

Post by Mr Man »

santa100 wrote:And what exactly that change could be?
Many different things can cause a change to happen.
santa100 wrote:At least I have provided sutta references.


You have not provided sutta references (plural) this is all you have provided with reference to the Sutta: - "(ie MN 124)".
You've continued to dodge all my questions.
See post right above this one for a straight forward answer to one of you questions.
Mr Man wrote:
santa100 wrote:
How could a man attain liberation if he doesn't even: "have faith anymore and uses his monk status just to earn money"??
Something could change
You go back through the thread and pull out the questions I have dodged.
santa100
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Re: [Study] Rate of disrobing by western monastics

Post by santa100 »

Mr Man wrote:Many different things can cause a change to happen
You dodge my question again. Answer my specific question. I didn't ask for "a change to happen". I specifically asked how that man can attain liberation:
How could a man attain liberation if he doesn't even: "have faith anymore and uses his monk status just to earn money"??
Mr Man wrote:You have not provided sutta references (plural) this is all You have provided with reference to the Sutta: - "(ie MN 124)".
You dodge my question again. What sutta(s) have you provided in return? What position have you taken in return? Just answer the questions.

There's something very fishy that you've continuously avoided answering my simple question with well-defined premise and scope:
Are you trying to say that a man can simply becomes a monk, gets a free ride with all his followers money donation, yet has zero faith in his pursuit, and he'll simply get away cleanly without any kammic debt to repay whether in this life or the next? Is that your position?
All that is needed is a yes or a no. And you still avoid it!
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Mr Man
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Re: [Study] Rate of disrobing by western monastics

Post by Mr Man »

santa100 wrote:You dodge my question again. Answer my specific question.
Here is your specific question
santa100 wrote:And what exactly that change could be?
And here is my answer
Mr Man wrote:Many different things can cause a change to happen.

Exactly what is going to be the cause of change in a particular individual, who I do not know, I obviously would not be able to say.
Mr Man wrote: What sutta(s) have you provided in return? What position have you taken in return? Just answer the questions.
Sutta references for what? My position is very straightforward here it is again - Your original post is pure speculation (you really do not want to deal with that one do you?) .
Are you trying to say that a man can simply becomes a monk, gets a free ride with all his followers money donation, yet has zero faith in his pursuit, and he'll simply get away cleanly without any kammic debt to repay whether in this life or the next? Is that your position?


No I am not saying that what I am saying is your original post is pure speculation (or are you going to post something to show otherwise?).
santa100
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Re: [Study] Rate of disrobing by western monastics

Post by santa100 »

Mr Man wrote:Sutta references for what? My position is very straightforward here it is again - Your original post is pure speculation (you really do not want to deal with that one do you?)
This is beyond absurd. It is your post that is pure speculation. Not mine for at least I have provided a sutta reference to prove that my position is not pure speculation. You have done nothing. No reference, no position. You don't even have the guts to answer a simple yes or no answer to confirm your position. You really do not want to deal with this shady agenda of yours, do you? I simply do not understand why you keep dodging a very simple yes or no question regardless of how many times I have posted and re-posted it for you. I really don't.
Last edited by santa100 on Fri Oct 14, 2016 11:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Mr Man
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Re: [Study] Rate of disrobing by western monastics

Post by Mr Man »

santa100 wrote:
Mr Man wrote:Sutta references for what? My position is very straightforward here it is again - Your original post is pure speculation (you really do not want to deal with that one do you?)
This is beyond absurd. It is your post that is pure speculation. Not mine for at least I have provided a sutta reference. You have done nothing. No reference, no position. You don't even have the guts to answer a simple yes or no answer to confirm your position. You really do not want to deal with this shady agenda of yours, do you?
You keep putting aspersions on me (go back over your posts). It is not nice.

My position is very clear here it is - Your original post is pure speculation.

Why don't you post something which shows that your original post is not speculation?
santa100
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Re: [Study] Rate of disrobing by western monastics

Post by santa100 »

Mr Man wrote:You keep putting aspersions on me (go back over your posts). It is not nice.

Why don't you post something which shows that your original post is not speculation?
I did provide the sutta reference. It's just that you have not read it. And it's not nice for you to accuse me of purely speculating while I did give you the sutta reference. It's also not nice to keep dodging simple questions that all that's needed for an answer is a simple yes or no. This begs the question that if you really have nothing to hide, why continuously avoid answering!
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mikenz66
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Re: [Study] Rate of disrobing by western monastics

Post by mikenz66 »

I would agree that trying to predict exactly what happens to the particular monk that Zom mentioned would be pure speculation.

However, it seems to me that the point of suttas such as MN 135 etc, is that behaving badly now will have consequences later. This is a warning to be careful about our own actions. And I think that was Santa's point:
santa100 wrote: Actually, it worse than just a bad option. It's quite harmful to one's future lives.
http://dhammawheel.com/viewtopic.php?f= ... 20#p400115
:anjali:
Mike
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Mr Man
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Re: [Study] Rate of disrobing by western monastics

Post by Mr Man »

santa100 wrote:
Mr Man wrote: I did provide the sutta reference. It's just that you have not read it.
You know that I have not read it?

These are from you posts:
You don't even have the guts to answer
this shady agenda of yours
There's something very fishy
You dodge
Read more suttas
Didn't you read Zom's post?
What is that all about?
santa100
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Re: [Study] Rate of disrobing by western monastics

Post by santa100 »

mikenz66 wrote:However, it seems to me that the point of suttas such as MN 135 etc, is that behaving badly now will have consequences later. This is a warning to be careful about our own actions. And I think that was Santa's point
Thank you Mike for understanding my point AND more importantly reminded me not to get carried away with unproductive frivolous talks for I myself wouldn't want to do anything unwholesome now that I might reap the bad consequences later. The info. has been provided, I have done my part, and will stop here.
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Mr Man
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Re: [Study] Rate of disrobing by western monastics

Post by Mr Man »

mikenz66 wrote:I would agree that trying to predict exactly what happens to the particular monk that Zom mentioned would be pure speculation.

However, it seems to me that the point of suttas such as MN 135 etc, is that behaving badly now will have consequences later. This is a warning to be careful about our own actions. And I think that was Santa's point:

Thanks Mike. Angulimala is an interesting story, as I believe he is one who through his actions we would imagine to be destined to eons in hell but he is said to have become an Arahat but still continued to apparently receive the consequences of his bad deeds.
Samasama
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Re: [Study] Rate of disrobing by western monastics

Post by Samasama »

I'm not sure what you mean by "decide for others". It's good for people to have a realistic idea of what they will face as a monk even if it doesn't change their mind about running away.

I certainly think it's a good idea to give it a go by doing long retreats (like staying for the rains) before deciding to become a resident. Many people say to just go for it and become a monk, if you disrobe then you just go back to lay life. It's not so straightforward, though; becoming a monk and disrobing can have a lasting affect on lay life. I don't think I'd be able to get a job as an engineer because employers would assume that I have no interpersonal skills (and they don't care to hear why that's untrue), I would probably have to get some unskilled work. I can appreciate if you consider an attempt at monastic life to be of greater benefit than any salary boost or work-fulfillment gained from not ordaining, likewise you can probably appreciate why some people would not want to risk these things until they've tested themselves in retreats and such.[/quote]



I think it is interesting to know the disrobing rate, i don't expect the figure to be 100% accurate though.

I had always wanted to know at what rate the monks, especially the western monks, disrobed. And how long they can stay on living under monkhood.

Personally, i would discourage people from ordaining as a bhikkhu unless they are really ready. There are many way to practice, even an anagarika could still practise in a monastery. one should only be ordained when they are ready and not simply be accepted. I would rather the monastery extend the samanera or novice periods to really test out before ordaining one as a bhikkhu.

Thanks for shedding some light into the matter, even though an accurate figure can be hard to come by without a detailed research and study with cooperation from the many monasteries. Thank you
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