Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Paññāsikhara » Sun Feb 28, 2010 7:26 am

tiltbillings wrote:
BlackBird wrote:
pilgrim wrote:A very different but hilarious perspective. Hitler hits out at bhikkhuni ordination

. . .
While you, I and the producer of the video may not agree with Ajahn Liem and Wat Pa Pong's position, and views on the subject of Bhikkhuni ordination, I don't think linking them to Hitler is the way forward, by any stretch of the imagination.

metta
Jack :heart:
It is a remarkably ugly, tasteless, and meanminded.
According to Godwin' Law,

"As an online discussion grows longer, the probability of a comparison involving Nazis or Hitler approaches 1."

But also,

"...there is a tradition in many newsgroups and other Internet discussion forums that once such a comparison is made, the thread is finished and whoever mentioned the Nazis has automatically "lost" whatever debate was in progress. This principle itself is frequently referred to as Godwin's Law."

Game over. You lose.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Sun Feb 28, 2010 11:19 am

Dan74 wrote:...but it's pretty hilarious nevertheless!
Re which, please see the Talaputa Sutta on the karmic effects of comedy.
Any beings who are not devoid of passion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of passion, focus with even more passion on things inspiring passion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of aversion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of aversion, focus with even more aversion on things inspiring aversion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Thus the actor — himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless — with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Sekha » Sun Feb 28, 2010 12:04 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Dan74 wrote:...but it's pretty hilarious nevertheless!
Re which, please see the Talaputa Sutta on the karmic effects of comedy.
Any beings who are not devoid of passion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of passion, focus with even more passion on things inspiring passion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of aversion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of aversion, focus with even more aversion on things inspiring aversion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Any beings who are not devoid of delusion to begin with, who are bound by the bond of delusion, focus with even more delusion on things inspiring delusion presented by an actor on stage in the midst of a festival. Thus the actor — himself intoxicated & heedless, having made others intoxicated & heedless — with the breakup of the body, after death, is reborn in what is called the hell of laughter.
:goodpost:


didn't know that one
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Virgo » Sun Feb 28, 2010 3:37 pm

cooran wrote:
pilgrim wrote:While I support the bhikkhuni ordination, I can't help but be dissapointed at the turn of events. Why didn't Ajahn Brahm wait until this matter was discussed at the WAM in December? Did Wat Pah Pong advise AB that this punitive action is a possible consequence? I'm aware that we do not know the whole story but it seems that the current situation could be avoided.

I also do not appreciate the way Sujato's blog (Nov 3rd entry) was written. Although he clearly supports AB, there was no need to portray the disagreeing monks as though they are all ignorant jerks especially in a public blog.

All in all, a major dissapointment. Even though I continue to support AB, Ajahn Sujato and the Bhikkhuni sangha, the joy in doing so is measurably less.
Hello pilgrim,

The whole point of the now cancelled Abbots meeting in Perth in December was to respectfully and fully discuss the question of Bhikkhuni Ordination ~ and the climate was very positive, all were working together with this as an aim.

Can you imagine if there had been chopping and changing in anything to do with the Vinaya over the centuries without deep consideration and respect for all cultural and dhammic perspectives?

Jumping the gun in this unfortunate way has nothing to do with' "We are the heroes, the wonderful Supporters of Bhikkhuni Ordination" ... those "others" are not."'

It carries with it for many of us, rather another connotation of 'bull-dozing', 'taking over' and 'attention seeking'.

May the rift be healed and this not cause further splitting and negativity.

metta
Chris
Ajahn Brahm had every right to give the women seeking ordination the side of the ordination that he was qualified to.

He does not have to wait for any abbots or anyone else to smile and approve. What he did was in keeping with the Vinaya, so he acted rightly. Waiting for approval by various others is only politics, not dhamma. More bhikkhus should shun to the world and live only by the Dharma, as he did. The problem is that the women may not or may not have a valid ordination from the lineage on the female side, which may constitue and invalid ordination. I am not a Buddhologist like Tilt, so I don't know. I am just suggesting that it may or may not be valid.

Monks don't need to follow any wordly dhamma. They only need to follow the Vinaya in these matters, imho.

Kevin

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by visalemc » Tue Mar 09, 2010 2:33 am

Can someone please explain to me what is the big deal about all of this?

Thai law forbids bhikkhuni ordination. What does this have to do with Buddhism? Why don't we just let the Thais be? It's Thai law. Let's keep the Buddha Dhamma out of this.

[EDIT: Personal attack on these Thai monks in question removed. Retro.]

Let's not forget folks what the Buddha has said about ascetic practices or any practice for that matter. They are just expedient means, the raft to be abandoned when no longer needed. Let's us not automatically give these guys our respect because they can sit all night in the full-lotus position. Even a rock can sit for weeks without moving. Or go days without eating. Folks, one can have supranormal powers without wisdom. And wisdom is what we should be evaluating.

I don't hesitate to inform these Thai monks that they are not the last word as far as the Buddha Dhamma is concerned. [EDIT: Personal attack on these Thai monks in question removed. Retro.]

I applaud the Bhikkhunis and all those who have helped make the ordination possible. Let the Thais be. Let them keep their own self-importance. Let them nurse their wounded, childish pride in peace.

Come to the US, Australia, Canada. Let these places do the real work of encouraging the fourfold assembly.

MODERATOR NOTE: Please desist from such attacks, and familiarise yourself with the Terms Of Service for this forum prior to posting again.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by cooran » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:06 am

visalemc said: You can see how dirty they are by the way in which they have injected conventional laws and prejudices into their interpretation of the Dhamma. If these are the representatives of "pure" Buddhism, then Buddhism is really in trouble. Big trouble.
How dare you refer to great bhikkhus in this scurrilous way. I see this is your first post ~ did you join just to do this and dis Thai Buddhism as well? A little more knowledge may have been of assistance to you. The majority of the Forest Sangha abbots do not oppose, but rather support, ordination of women.

BTW, most of the Abbots and Senior Monks of the ForestSangha live in other countries and are not Thai but european e.g. Ajahn Sumedho from Amaravati Monastery - UK, Ajahn Amaro and Ajahn Pasanno from Abhayagiri Monastery - U.S.A., Ajahn Thiradhammo from Bodhinyanarama Monastery - New Zealand, Ajahn Sucitto from Cittaviveka Monastery - UK, Ajahn Khemasiri from Dhammapala Kloster - Switzerland, Ajahn Khemadhammo from Forest Hermitage - UK, Ajahn Jutindharo of Hartridge Monastery - UK, Ajahn Chandapalo of Santacittarama Monastero - Italy, Ajahn Punnadhammo - Arrow River Centre - Canada, Ven. Bhikkhu Sona - Birken Forest Monastery, Canada, Ajahn Dhammasiha - Dhammagiri Hermitage - Australia, Ajahn Viradhammo and Ajahn Kusalo - Tisarana Monastery, Canada.

karuna,
Chris
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by BlackBird » Tue Mar 09, 2010 4:38 am

I don't think the actions of a small group of Bhikkhu's are indicative of the majority of Thai Bhikkhus, let alone Thai Buddhism, let alone Thai people. There are many elements that make up a whole, to see a very small part of the whole picture and claim it as the whole, is a very sloppy, and hurtful assumption. Not only does it hurt you, it hurts others.

I hope this is a cause for some introspection, my good friend.

Jack
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by visalemc » Tue Mar 09, 2010 10:20 am

"Majority"? Majority. That's all I hear is "most of the monks" or "majority of them". In the practical sense, it might as well be none. Here "majority" is meaningless because if this supposed majority exists, why has it allowed this minority represent them in such an unskillful manner? Why has this been allowed to exist for so long? This "most" is also responsible. As I've stated, wisdom is the main factor. How is the the wisdom of the Buddhas consistent with the intolerance and mistreatment of another because of sex or race? It's obvious that these senior monks lost face because they couldn't control one of their own. I say , deal with it. The Bhikkuni ordination is the essential issue here. If this "pure" Thai tradition can't separate, can't distinguish the twigs and leaves from the heartwood, it will die off through irrelevance. Let's not forget folks that Buddhism died off in the very country of its birth, how much more possible is it for this to occur in another?

As for these western monks, they too are complicit. Most have hidden behind the excuse of tradition and have deflected the issue by focusing on the "not the right way to have gone about it" perspective. Fine, it was unskillful to go about it that way, yet what about bhikkuni ordination? I've been waiting and still waiting for some of these Western Ajahns (Sumedho, Jayasaro) for whom I have profound respect and much gratitude to say how the mistreatment of women is conventional, cultural and not something which exists a priori in or flows naturally from Buddhism. As it is, I can only looked to the Dhamma and the Buddha in order to improve myself if the Sangha doesn't have the courage to do what should be done.

I am not sorry. Bhikkus can't be considered great if they let convention or tradition justify injustice and intolerance.
cooran wrote: How dare you refer to great bhikkhus in this scurrilous way. I see this is your first post ~ did you join just to do this and dis Thai Buddhism as well? A little more knowledge may have been of assistance to you. The majority of the Forest Sangha abbots do not oppose, but rather support, ordination of women.

BTW, most of the Abbots and Senior Monks of the ForestSangha live in other countries and are not Thai but european e.g. Ajahn Sumedho from Amaravati Monastery - UK, Ajahn Amaro and Ajahn Pasanno from Abhayagiri Monastery - U.S.A., Ajahn Thiradhammo from Bodhinyanarama Monastery - New Zealand, Ajahn Sucitto from Cittaviveka Monastery - UK, Ajahn Khemasiri from Dhammapala Kloster - Switzerland, Ajahn Khemadhammo from Forest Hermitage - UK, Ajahn Jutindharo of Hartridge Monastery - UK, Ajahn Chandapalo of Santacittarama Monastero - Italy, Ajahn Punnadhammo - Arrow River Centre - Canada, Ven. Bhikkhu Sona - Birken Forest Monastery, Canada, Ajahn Dhammasiha - Dhammagiri Hermitage - Australia, Ajahn Viradhammo and Ajahn Kusalo - Tisarana Monastery, Canada.

karuna,
Chris

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Bhikkhu Pesala » Tue Mar 09, 2010 12:43 pm

In my opinion, this matter should be left to the Sangha to discuss and resolve, especially the Thai Forest Sangha. Those who are not well informed about the Vinaya are very likely to make akusala kamma in discussing this topic.
Those monks who explain not Vinaya as not Vinaya, Vinaya as Vinaya, what was not said by the Tathägata as not said by him, what was said by him as said by him, what was not practised by him as not practised by him, what was practised by him as practised by him, what was not laid down by him as not laid down by him, what was laid down by him as laid down by him, work for the welfare, happiness, and benefit of gods and men. They make much merit and preserve the true Dhamma. (A.i.140-149)
However, the converse is also true — those who explain what is not Vinaya as Vinaya, make much demerit and cause the disappearance of the true Dhamma.

If you do not know what is Vinaya or what is not Vinaya, do not express any opinion about what is or what is not in accordance with the Vinaya. Do not rely on hearsay, do not fall prey to prejudice (against prohibiting bhikkhuni ordination), or bias (in favour of it).
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by retrofuturist » Tue Mar 09, 2010 11:01 pm

Greetings venerable sir,

Sadhu! Sadhu! Sadhu!

:goodpost:

Metta,
Retro. :)
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by gavesako » Wed Mar 17, 2010 6:39 am

Not all women who decide to become Buddhist nuns want to be bhikkhunis.
Here is a video with Sister (Saylay) Visuddhi from Malaysia interviewed by Bhante Anandajoti at Vivekavana in January 2010. She talks about life as a 10 precept nun and the challenges of it:

http://www.archive.org/details/SisterVi ... ewJan.2010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


And here is a recent reflection on the cultural differences between England and Thailand regarding this status of women by Ajahn Sucitto:

http://sucitto.blogspot.com/2010/03/kno ... u-are.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Freawaru » Tue Mar 23, 2010 10:12 am

gavesako wrote:Not all women who decide to become Buddhist nuns want to be bhikkhunis.
Here is a video with Sister (Saylay) Visuddhi from Malaysia interviewed by Bhante Anandajoti at Vivekavana in January 2010. She talks about life as a 10 precept nun and the challenges of it:

http://www.archive.org/details/SisterVi ... ewJan.2010" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;


And here is a recent reflection on the cultural differences between England and Thailand regarding this status of women by Ajahn Sucitto:

http://sucitto.blogspot.com/2010/03/kno ... u-are.html" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Dear Bhante Gavesako,

thank you for these links. :smile:

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by manas » Sun Sep 05, 2010 1:28 am

deleted. :broke:
Last edited by manas on Mon Sep 13, 2010 2:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Maitri » Tue Sep 07, 2010 2:31 am

I saw this news recently. How wonderful! I'd love to be in the company of these great bhikkhuni's for even a week of practice. Hopefully their community will continue to grow and flourish. :anjali:
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Even so, on the rubbish heap of blinded mortals the disciple of the Supremely Enlightened One shines resplendent in wisdom." Dhammapada: Pupphavagga

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by yuttadhammo » Fri Sep 10, 2010 5:25 am

visalemc wrote:"Majority"? Majority. That's all I hear is "most of the monks" or "majority of them". In the practical sense, it might as well be none. Here "majority" is meaningless because if this supposed majority exists, why has it allowed this minority represent them in such an unskillful manner? Why has this been allowed to exist for so long? This "most" is also responsible. As I've stated, wisdom is the main factor. How is the the wisdom of the Buddhas consistent with the intolerance and mistreatment of another because of sex or race? It's obvious that these senior monks lost face because they couldn't control one of their own. I say , deal with it. The Bhikkuni ordination is the essential issue here. If this "pure" Thai tradition can't separate, can't distinguish the twigs and leaves from the heartwood, it will die off through irrelevance. Let's not forget folks that Buddhism died off in the very country of its birth, how much more possible is it for this to occur in another?
I always find it funny when people talk about this small group of well-practiced monks as though they represent Thailand. There are Bhikkhunis all over Thailand, sir. One of my students just ordained as a Bhikkhuni and is now in Wat Rampoeng in Chiang Mai, I think. There's three Bhikkhuni monasteries in Chiang Main alone. Wat Pa Nanachat is not Thai Buddhism. They just happen to be a small group that has gained International acclaim, and rightly so. They are still a small minority and what the Wat Nong Pa Bong sangha says is not really indicative of what the rest of the country is doing. Heck, what the Sangharaja says is not really indicative of what the rest of the country is doing.

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