Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Anders
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Anders » Mon Nov 23, 2009 11:41 am

Manapa wrote:when?
on the 13th.
May I suggest that we have a forgiveness ceremony as soon as possible. I am more than prepared to formally and sincerely publicly apologise on behalf of the Sangha and lay Buddhist community of Perth for the process that led up to the ordination,
Manapa wrote:Actually debating what should of been the course of action is the point, this is so others don't make the mistake of sullying what should be a beautiful thing.
He was too secretive and should have waited till after the conference where he could have aired his views and intentions and left the WPP sangha under more harmonious circumstances.

There. Done and dusted. AFAIK, only ve. Sujato has not openly conceded this point. What else is there to debate on this?

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Cittasanto » Mon Nov 23, 2009 12:30 pm

Last Friday (the 13th!) Ajahn Brahm sent an email to the western Ajahns, once more explaining his acts, and very generously suggesting that they hold an Act of Forgiveness. Here are a few excerpts from the email.
I have put off blogging this, in the hope and expectation that we would get some replies. Alas, to my knowledge no-one has responded to this invitation yet. On the contrary, I have started to get reports of more of the ‘unwarranted penalties’ to which Ajahn Brahm refers. Again, I will delay blogging these for a little, as I would like to have more chance for the forgiveness option to gain traction. Hopefully these monks can decide that enough is enough and let go.
Sujato is unbelevable. Brahm has remained quiet but is far from without fault.
now they hope to force the WPP monastery to forgive them by making their generosity known, like they have made their supperior morality well known (or sujato has)! didn't occure to them that the Ajahns concerned may not be easily reached or anything!

the full issue that this has brought up, appart from the bhikkhuni issue, is the way Ajahns operate within a larger group, how there actions reflect on others, and how they show respect to the laity.

Like I have said earlier I am not a brahm fan, but his actions have had the result of even less but I will concied that in comparison he has been spotless compared to sujato, so all in all these two have shown a lack of respect for the tradition in which they belong the wider sangha of which they were vountary members, individuals within that sangha, laity, and the women who ordained as Bhikkhunis both now in the past and future (in all cases of groups), how would this level of disrespect be dealt with.

although I feel there has, or may have been some dissonance from me in this issue as to what I felt or expressed as the issue precicely.yes, no maybe ah slap the lot on :thinking: .
although the bhikkhuni issue has to be kept away from this - why? to keep any ordinations pure, beautiful, and worthy of a disciple of the noble ones
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by bodhabill » Mon Nov 23, 2009 9:15 pm

by David N. Snyder » Mon Nov 23, 2009 3:55 pm

mikenz66 wrote:
I tend to agree with Chris. This is my worst fear with this issue, that it becomes one-dimensional, two camps:
* You're for Bhikkhunis right now or you're sexist and obstructive.
* You're upholding the purity of the Sangha or you're schismatic.


I agree that it would be bad if it were only the two above extreme view camps, but fortunately I think most of us fall into one of the "middle" camps of:

B. Ajahn Brahm and his monks at his center followed correct protocol by holding the double-ordination ceremony. Theravada is a large and diverse school of Buddhism and other lineage traditions can choose a different schedule for bhikkhuni ordinations.
C. The bhikkhuni reinstatement is a good thing in principle, but they should have waited for the meeting in December in Thailand with WPP.
D. The bhikkhuni reinstatement may be a good thing in principle but should wait until further discussions and meetings of senior venerables.

(with the polarizing views represented by 'A' & 'E')

I think most fall into one of the above 3 views, with just a handful falling into one of the extreme positions quoted above.
Hi David

A sensible and rational summary

With Metta
Bill
"Complaining is finding faults, wisdom is finding solutions" Ajahn Brahm

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by bodhabill » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:03 pm

Hi Manapa
Sujato is unbelevable. Brahm has remained quiet but is far from without fault.
now they hope to force the WPP monastery to forgive them by making their generosity known, like they have made their supperior morality well known (or sujato has)! didn't occure to them that the Ajahns concerned may not be easily reached or anything!
My friend you know there are some of us here that think that the Thai Sangha and the UK Sangha including Ajahn Sumedho are the unbelievable ones and actually believe that Ajahn Brahm and Bhante Sujato have done a wonderful correct thing in holding the Bhikkhuni ordination

I have met Ajahn Brahm on a few occasions including attending a meditation retreat, in my opinion he is one of the great Buddhist communicators in the world today bringing the Buddha's teachings to a wide and varied audience

I regularly attend Bhante Sujato's monastery and have never been in a place with so much harmony and metta amongst the monks, nuns, and lay people

In my observation both venerables act in an honourable, trustworthy, and principled manner

Can you substantiate your ongoing aggression toward Ajahn Brahm and Bhante Sujato, it obviously goes beyond the Bhikkhuni ordination

With Metta
Bill
Last edited by bodhabill on Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by mikenz66 » Mon Nov 23, 2009 10:43 pm

Hi bodhabill,
bodhabill wrote: My friend you know there are some of us here that think that the Thai Sangha and the UK Sangha including Ajahn Sumedho are the unbelievable ones and actually believe that Ajahn Brahm and Bhante Sujato have done a wonderful correct thing in holding the Bhikkhuni ordination.

I have met Ajahn Brahm on a few occasions including attending a meditation retreat, in my opinion he is one of the great Buddhist communicators in the world today bring the Buddha's teachings to a wide and varied audience
I've been to several talks and done a one-day retreat with Ajahn Brahm, and I've no doubt he is a sincere and skilful teacher.

I've been on retreats with Ajahn Tiradhammo (the latest one on the weekend of the excommunication - he chose to be with his students rather than travel to Thailand) and I've no doubt that he is a sincere and skilful teacher.

Clearly they have different views on the best approach to making Bhikkhuni ordination more acceptable and viable.

I would not like to guess which approach will be the most successful in the long term, but I am dismayed by the polarization of opinion that continues to occur.

Metta
Mike

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:02 am

Hi BB
if you think I think their actions have anything to do with Bhikkhunis you seriously need to look again.
and what am I finding unbelievable?

bodhabill wrote:Hi Manapa
Sujato is unbelevable. Brahm has remained quiet but is far from without fault.
now they hope to force the WPP monastery to forgive them by making their generosity known, like they have made their supperior morality well known (or sujato has)! didn't occure to them that the Ajahns concerned may not be easily reached or anything!
My friend you know there are some of us here that think that the Thai Sangha and the UK Sangha including Ajahn Sumedho are the unbelievable ones and actually believe that Ajahn Brahm and Bhante Sujato have done a wonderful correct thing in holding the Bhikkhuni ordination

I have met Ajahn Brahm on a few occasions including attending a meditation retreat, in my opinion he is one of the great Buddhist communicators in the world today bring the Buddha's teachings to a wide and varied audience

I regularly attend Bhante Sujato's monastery and have never been in a place with so much harmony and metta amongst the monks, nuns, and lay people

In my observation both venerables act in an honourable, trustworthy, and principled manner

Can you substantiate your ongoing aggression toward Ajahn Brahm and Bhante Sujato, it obviously goes beyond the Bhikkhuni ordination

With Metta
Bill
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:13 am

here is a clue of how to look
remove the Bhikkhunis from the eqsasion
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by BudSas » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:23 am

Friends,

Perhaps we should take a break, and wait to see the outcome from the coming WAM (World Abbots Meeting) on December 7-9 at Wat Pa Nanachat, Thailand.

BDS

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by bodhabill » Tue Nov 24, 2009 1:44 am

Hi Manapa
what am I finding unbelievable?
here is a clue of how to look
remove the Bhikkhunis from the eqsasion
Well I'm at a loss

The entire debate is around the Bhikkhuni ordination:
Did Ajahm Brahm and Bhante Sujato do the right thing?
Did the Thai and UK Sangha do the right thing?
Should Bhikkhuni ordinations be allowed?
What will now happen in the future?
Is there a schism or a ripple in the pond?

All acceptable and rational discussion points

But wait

Are you hinting that there is some sort conspiracy theory surrounding Ajahn Brahm and Bhante Sujato?

Another hidden agenda?

Out with it, we need to know

With Metta
Bill
Last edited by bodhabill on Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:38 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by jcsuperstar » Tue Nov 24, 2009 4:02 am

i totally dont even know what youre talking about anymore Manapa... :shrug:

other than the Bhikkhuni issue what is there to be upset about? and why are you so upset about this issue (or at least coming off as upset, IDK the internet is a funny little thing at times), are you a woman who wanted to ordain but wasn't allowed? where one of these monks your teacher and you now feel betrayed by their actions? is there some direct effect on you?

all the time i read of monks doing despicable things, there was one who was using his female supporters to gather young girls so he could molest them, there was just a story about one who had to be taken to the hospital after he passed out while raping a dog, theres the big thing going on about the money issues at Wat Suthorn (sp?) right now, yet none of that seems to draw the kind of passion that this is...
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by DNS » Tue Nov 24, 2009 6:37 am

Various Buddhist groups and bhikkhuni groups around the internet are posting a link to a petition to sign for support for the bhikkhunis and their ordinations, if you are interested:

If you are concerned about the issues raised and wish to support a respectful request to the Bhikkhu Elders of the Forest Sangha to engage a forum of open discussion,

Then,

Read the petition, if you support its aims then please sign it and send it around.

http://new.ipetitions.com/petition/bhik ... rdination/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The petition and letters are due to be delivered at the WAM (World Abbots Meeting) at the beginning of December at Wat Pa Pong in Thailand. It will be prepared from the 26th, so please sign or write asap!

Thank you to those who have already signed and thank you for your interest.
(I signed, #1158 on page 24.)

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by bodhabill » Tue Nov 24, 2009 8:32 am

Hi David

Signed at #260 on page 6

With Metta
Bill
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by poto » Tue Nov 24, 2009 9:05 am

David N. Snyder wrote:Various Buddhist groups and bhikkhuni groups around the internet are posting a link to a petition to sign for support for the bhikkhunis and their ordinations, if you are interested:

If you are concerned about the issues raised and wish to support a respectful request to the Bhikkhu Elders of the Forest Sangha to engage a forum of open discussion,

Then,

Read the petition, if you support its aims then please sign it and send it around.

http://new.ipetitions.com/petition/bhik ... rdination/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

The petition and letters are due to be delivered at the WAM (World Abbots Meeting) at the beginning of December at Wat Pa Pong in Thailand. It will be prepared from the 26th, so please sign or write asap!

Thank you to those who have already signed and thank you for your interest.
(I signed, #1158 on page 24.)
Thanks, I just got around to signing it. I'm #1522 on page 31.
"Of all tyrannies, a tyranny exercised for the good of its victims may be the most oppressive. It may be better to live under robber barons than under omnipotent moral busybodies. The robber baron's cruelty may sometimes sleep, his cupidity may at some point be satiated; but those who torment us for our own good will torment us without end, for they do so with the approval of their own conscience." -- C. S. Lewis

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Cittasanto » Tue Nov 24, 2009 12:54 pm

here are a few things, or points regarding bhikkhunis that I have heard

if you don't support this ordination your a sexist.

men are afraid of loosing their power.

if you see any other form as a suitable alternative for any reason (of which their is none) your a sexist.

and one amarvati nun left because after a visit to Thailand (where the society is different) she noticed sexism in the society at amaravati so left (transplanting western values on a place which doesn't share them?)

looking at these as example cases through the Dhamma i.e. the suttas, what is actually going on is conceit within the issue of brahms actions, when I asked what the point of the petition, the goal, was on an e-mail group it demonstrated all there types of conceit in one paragraph (of several paragraphs all saying the same thing), and it is there in the petition to a lesser extent.

that would be weak if bhikkhuni ordination wasn't available, but it is, both within theravada and mahayana.

Now look at brahms talks (in general &) specifically within the excommunication framework here http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obwb8oYgWPU" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false; but also remember the Buddhas advice to rahula, then apply the same to sujatos blog look at it from the suttas or to put it another way the buddha taught one thing suffering and the way leading out of suffering, and what was the Buddhas advise when the sangha was accused of murder?

this is all pervasive on this topic, and in order not to belittle aspirant women, or the twofold sangha they need to be removed from this issue, then look at the correspondence of the WPP Ajahns in this matter, and see what they see, an Ajahn who broke away from the Larger sangha, disrespect due to the actions which led up to and came after and the video will give you an indication of what they see and are concerned about also (at the beginning).

In principle we are the same, in reality we are similar, both generally as in sex or species there will be certain common things, and certain different things, and this is the same on an individual level also, the difference between the two is that no two men are the same no man or woman is the same, but the general, wider differences and similarities are still present to some degree.

I may be wrong by suggesting that the Bhikkhuni issue should be removed from the equation at least long enough to look at what is going on underneath, but is anyone right by trying to use moral superiority as an excuse? Equality starts by keeping the standards set down, and being open and honest.

and yes I know some of what I said can be used in favour of Bhikkhuni ordination and can be seen as me being a hypocrite, but am I actually against Bhikkhuni ordination? no, am I against duel standards in setting it back up properly in each tradition (ie against their interpreaton of the Vinaya)? yes, am I against forcing a society to change? yes.
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He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Vardali » Tue Nov 24, 2009 2:08 pm

Manapa, no sweat, this is all just condition. just follow your path as best as you can and leave others to follow their path as best as they can. if it isn't always the same path, well, that's condition, too ;)

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