Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by DNS » Tue Nov 17, 2009 4:25 am

Vardali wrote:
pilgrim wrote:--
Pls give us the link anyway. I don't know german but sometimes can roughly make out what a phrase says.
Here you go, the statement of the associatione/society concerning bhikkhuni ordination in the Thai tradition
http://www.theravadablog.de/2009/11/14/waldkloster-e-v/
English translation of the statement on bhikkhuni ordination: (by google translator, not the best, but much faster than I could do)

Thanks to the conservation and preservation of the tradition in the Asian countries, Buddhism has arrived in its monastic form in the West. But shows 2500 years after the extinction of the Awakened that the purity change is no longer visible anywhere in the original form. There is a growing structural divergence from the original Dhamma-Vinaya clearly have established themselves over the centuries. It is fair to go so far as to say that, in the important areas of interaction of the four meetings is no longer the Dhamma-Vinaya is the sole authority, but hierarchical structures, people and even state-supporting institutions have their say, which is located at more Machtenfaltung and maintaining power than in the exercise of the doctrine of the sublime. The examples are numerous.

The association Buddhist forest monastery would hereby clearly distance themselves from those traditionally grown variations of Buddhism and their representatives.

Basically noted that most conflicts within the Sangha, as well as conflicts with non-ordained to be a reversal of the actual teaching, the true refuge for all Buddhists - the very Dhamma-Vinaya are lead back.

The Association would therefore like to encourage a salutary return to the Dhamma-Vinaya, to this country can beat the Buddhism in his scholarly way, from the sublime root. This is only possible if the four meetings (monks, nuns, laypeople and lay supporters) from the sublime ENVISAGED fulfill their obligations.

D16: "I'm Not, Evil, completely extinguished, do not mean to monks, nuns, my, my lay followers, be my listeners and supporters lay listeners are educated, restrained, fearless, skilled, bearers of the doctrine, teaching, and knowing's advice , acting with a reasonable approach to teaching. Until they explain that they have learned from their own teacher, recite, adopted, justified, may explain, analyze, erect to proclaim to refute false teachings created with the help of the doctrine, once they have disproved (it) proclaim it the overriding lesson. "

These words of the Master shortly before its final extinction are clear. We are committed to ensuring that it is not by ordained as well as by-ordained to be implemented.

The cooperation and harmony of the four meetings is the only way to unlock the true Dhamma of the Exalted in this country really grow and thrive in its original form to.

M 73: "Because Bhikkhunis and monks, dressed in white lay followers and supporters dressed in white lay people, both those that a celibate life cause, as well as those who are enjoying sensual pleasure, are successful in this Dhamma, this holy life so fully in this regard.

As Gangesfluß moves towards the sea to the sea draws in the direction of the sea flows and extends to the sea, it also moves Master Gotama Folgschaft to their homelessness and their householders to Nibbana, is coming to Nibbana, which flows towards Nibbana, and extends up to Nibbana. "

It is our statutory objective to support an original Buddhism, in which modesty, honesty, sound knowledge and renunciation of the consumption patterns in the foreground.

The fact that the German legal system makes it necessary for supporting associations monasteries, were offered by the precious opportunity to return to a period marked by mutual respect and a strong knowledge culture of communication in order.
For the purposes of the Buddha was neither a hierarchical system nor a democratic decision-making process, but decisions have been taken fully equals in a consensus. (The consensus means the agreement of people, mostly within a group, regarding a certain topic without covert or overt opposition.)

We, the Forest Monastery Association to invite the Sangha for his involvement in creating the Buddha Dhamma in this country a home and each of the meetings four times so as to instruct, educate and empower everyone's ability to carry out their assigned roles from the sublime. We ask the Buddhists in the home life, not just its role as a material supporter of the Sangha ready and passionate exercise, but also fulfill their function as reported in the Vinaya knowledgeable companions of monks and Bhikkhunis too.

We call on the Sangha to help us due to a profound sense of gratitude for the Buddha, Dhamma and Sangha and the benefits springing responsibility to avert any kind of danger or harm to the Three Jewels. That unites us all as) Kalyanamitta (good friends. Only if we treat each other in that sense, it can be their own progress and Lehrnachfolge conducive to the sublime.

S 42, 7: "There is a house father, a plowman, three fields: one field is the best, a field is mediocre, a field is scanty, karst, salt, and has poor soil. What do you think Head: When this family man who wants to sow Plowman, in which field he would make the first sowing at the best, the mediocre or poor, limestone, salt with the bad earth? "

"If, sir, this house had the Plowman sow, wants, then he would first order the best field. After he has planted there, he would order a mediocre field. After he has planted there, he might also order the sparse, limestone, salt field with poor soil. And why? It could nevertheless be cattle feed.
"Just here the best field, so are my monks and nuns. I show them the lesson that propitiated at the beginning, in the middle pacified, appeased at the end, lay senseless and quite literally the purified, fully enlightened Brahma change dar. And why? This pause, Superintendent, with me as an island, used to protect, shelter, a refuge.

Just as the middle field, superintendent, my followers and supporters. Even where I lay out the doctrine, which propitiated at the beginning, the middle pacified, appeased at the end, lay senseless and quite literally the purified, fully enlightened Brahma dar. change and why? This pause, Superintendent, with me as an island, used to protect, shelter, a refuge.

Just as the poor, limestone, salt field with poor soil are my andersfährtigen ascetics, Brahmins and pilgrims. Also where do I see the lesson that propitiated at the beginning, the middle pacified, appeased at the end, lay senseless and quite literally the purified, fully enlightened Brahma change dar. And why? Even if they only understand a sentence, so long as they would redound to the welfare and well-being. "

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by cooran » Tue Nov 17, 2009 7:59 am

Hello David, Vardali,

It doesn't make much sense ... what point is it making and in what way is it allegedly supporting the ordination of bhikkhunis?

And who wrote the Blog? ... some anonymous lay person, or if not, which bhikkhu?

metta
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by catmoon » Tue Nov 17, 2009 8:12 am

As an outsider to all this, I just see the ordination as greatly skilful means.

I do know bureaucracy, and how it tends to delay year on year, decade on decade, and at the end, change nothing. So perhaps all that has happened is justice has been served quickly. Whenever this happens, some will complain about procedure, but hey - heaven knows how much unjust delay has been avoided.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by pilgrim » Tue Nov 17, 2009 10:34 am

Chris wrote:Hello David, Vardali,

It doesn't make much sense ... what point is it making and in what way is it allegedly supporting the ordination of bhikkhunis?

And who wrote the Blog? ... some anonymous lay person, or if not, which bhikkhu?

metta
Chris
Ven Gavesako who stays in Muttodaya will be able to shed light on this. Is he a member of this forum?

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by DNS » Wed Nov 18, 2009 6:02 am

Chris wrote:Hello David, Vardali,
It doesn't make much sense ... what point is it making and in what way is it allegedly supporting the ordination of bhikkhunis?
And who wrote the Blog? ... some anonymous lay person, or if not, which bhikkhu?
Hi Chris,

It is signed by the "Board of Directors." I think it is saying that the Buddha wanted and wished for the four assemblies of monks, nuns, lay men, and lay women; although my German is not what it used to be. Perhaps one of our other German speakers here could do a better job at deciphering it.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Cittasanto » Wed Nov 18, 2009 9:00 am

David N. Snyder wrote:
Chris wrote:Hello David, Vardali,
It doesn't make much sense ... what point is it making and in what way is it allegedly supporting the ordination of bhikkhunis?
And who wrote the Blog? ... some anonymous lay person, or if not, which bhikkhu?
Hi Chris,

It is signed by the "Board of Directors." I think it is saying that the Buddha wanted and wished for the four assemblies of monks, nuns, lay men, and lay women; although my German is not what it used to be. Perhaps one of our other German speakers here could do a better job at deciphering it.
uick question what group wrote it?
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by BudSas » Wed Nov 18, 2009 10:26 am

One more article on the subject:

http://www.theravadablog.de/2009/11/17/bhikkhuni-issue/

BDS

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by roni » Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:15 am

If you are a signing type... :)

Buddhism and women: calling for Bhikkhuni ordination and gender equality in the Forest Sangha: http://new.ipetitions.com/petition/bhik ... rdination/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Dan74 » Wed Nov 18, 2009 11:56 am

BudSas wrote:One more article on the subject:

http://www.theravadablog.de/2009/11/17/bhikkhuni-issue/

BDS
In spite of a couple of factual inaccuracies, sounds to me like a well-balanced account of the issue. Probably the best I've seen so far.

Much metta to all concerned! May all the wounds and rift heal swiftly.

_/|\_
_/|\_

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Cittasanto » Wed Nov 18, 2009 1:38 pm

Dan74 wrote:
BudSas wrote:One more article on the subject:

http://www.theravadablog.de/2009/11/17/bhikkhuni-issue/

BDS
In spite of a couple of factual inaccuracies, sounds to me like a well-balanced account of the issue. Probably the best I've seen so far.

Much metta to all concerned! May all the wounds and rift heal swiftly.

_/|\_
It seams to be just as you say, well ballanced, but inaccurate to a degree.
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by BudSas » Thu Nov 19, 2009 6:40 am

A new article in the Bangkok Post:

http://www.bangkokpost.com/opinion/opin ... -for-women

BDS

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Jason » Thu Nov 19, 2009 9:49 pm

Personally, I completely support full ordination for women for the simple fact that one of my teachers when I used to live in California was Ayya Tathaaloka. I've met few with as much dedication to the practice as her, and I'm happy to see that others, like Ajahn Brahm, are taking up the cause.

I guess I just don't see why a few minor technicalities should prevent women from having the exact same opportunity as men to commit themselves fully to the practice. I'm sure it's easy for men who don't have that problem to wonder what all the fuss is about, but if a lower ordination wasn't enough for them, why should it be for an entire gender?

From what I've read about it (which is mostly research and presentations done by Bhikkhu Bodhi, Ajahn Sujato and Ayya Tathaaloka from the 2007 conference in Hamburg), the question rests on whether bhikkhus and bhikkhunis from the Dharmagupta lineage — which Ajahn Brahm and others argue follows Theravada Vinaya — can ordain bhikkhunis.

There have been some good arguments against this, of course, one being the claim by Dhammanando Bhikkhu that the Dharmagupta lineage began in 357 CE with ordinations by bhikkhus only, thus invalidating it by Theravadin standards. But even if that's true, as Bhikkhu Gavesako points out, "The problem with the transmissions of ordination lineage is that, even in the Theravada tradition, nobody knows for sure whether the lineage was once broken or not."

In the end, I know that nothing I say will change the minds of those who are decidedly against this; however, I think it comes down to following the spirit rather than the letter of the Vinaya.

I can't imagine the Buddha wanted his monastic community to be dominated solely by men, nor can I imagine that he would be so uptight about ordination procedures (you know, the whole "clinging to rite and rituals" thing) if it meant reviving the other half of the Sangha at a time when women are breaking free from centuries of discrimination (like being considered the property of their husband/family) and now have more freedom to engage in both worldly and spiritual pursuits. But then, I'm just a dumb lay-follower, so what do I know? :p
Last edited by Jason on Thu Nov 19, 2009 11:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Cittasanto » Thu Nov 19, 2009 10:22 pm

I agree, unfortunately I don't agree with how brahm went about it

or sujatos mud slinging
Blog, Suttas, Aj Chah, Facebook.

He who knows only his own side of the case knows little of that. His reasons may be good, and no one may have been able to refute them.
But if he is equally unable to refute the reasons on the opposite side, if he does not so much as know what they are, he has no ground for preferring either opinion …
...
He must be able to hear them from persons who actually believe them … he must know them in their most plausible and persuasive form.
John Stuart Mill

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by cooran » Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:27 am

Bankei wrote:Yes Bankei I know about it.

There is a message about this here http://sujato.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It seems Bhikkhu Bodhi has become concerned about the secrecy aspects and said it would have been preferrable if Bhikkhu Brahm had waiting for the WAM in December before proceding.

Bankei
Hello Bankei, all,

I think Bhikkhu Bodhi's Revised Statement bears posting in full:

Nov. 6, 2009
Dear Ven. Sujato,

Over the past few days I have obtained more information about the background to the bhikkhuni ordination in Perth than I had available to me last week, when I wrote my letter of congratulations. This more recent information has given me a fuller and clearer picture of the implications of the ordination. While I did expect that Ajahn Brahm and you would be ostracized by the wider WPP Sangha, at the time I wrote I did not realize that relations between monastic communities and among the individual monks that comprise this tradition were as tight and communally determined as they actually are. In the light of my recent insights into the way this tradition functions, I have been compelled to revise the opinion I expressed in the letter I sent you last week and which I approved being posted on your website. I would appreciate it if you would also post this letter on the same website to round out my assessment of the ordination.

I first want to make it absolutely clear that in principle I fully support bhikkhuni ordination. I regard the women who have taken this ordination, whether from lineages based in the so-called “Mahayana countries” or from the recently emergent Theravada bhikkhunis, as legitimately ordained bhikkhunis, fully entitled to participate in the Sangha acts prescribed for them in the Vinaya. I also believe that a full-scale revival of the Bhikkhuni Sangha and its unqualified acceptance by the Bhikkhu Sangha is an imperative for the Theravāda tradition in our time.

At the same time, however, in view of the intimate communal structure of the WPP Sangha and the close bonds between the abbots of the monasteries belonging to this tradition, I have been regretfully forced to the conclusion that Ajahn Brahm and yourself were at fault for proceeding in the hasty and secretive way in which you conducted the ordination. In my opinion, in view of the fact that Ajahn Brahm had been an important and much respected member of this community, he should have discussed the issue openly and fully at a meeting with all its prominent representatives, and patiently attempted to prevail upon them with the art of persuasion. You might object that he (and yourself) have tried doing so for years without success, but I am not sure that there has not been substantial progress in this area. Don’t forget that several of the European abbots and siladharas attended the conference at Hamburg, which in itself marked a significant step forward. Further, and especially, a World Abbots’ Meeting was scheduled to be held at Bodhinyana Monastery in December, with the bhikkhuni issue given a prominent place on the agenda. You would only have had to wait patiently for another six weeks to bring the issue to a head.

I believe that, even if you both had felt that the urgency of bhikkhuni ordination had reached a “tipping point,” the meeting in December would have served as the ideal venue to press for a final decision. Even if you were pessimistic that the meeting would have had fruitful results, it still could have served as a final testing ground. If, at that meeting, the international abbots had approved bhikkhuni ordination, at least for Western Australia, you would have been at liberty to arrange the ordination in harmony with the wider WPP Sangha (at least the international branches) and thus hurt feelings would have been minimized. If, on the other hand, the proposal to conduct bhikkhuni ordination was flatly rejected, Ajahn Brahm could have made a reasonable choice. He could either have decided to withdraw from the WPP network and arrange the ordination as a fully autonomous elder monk; or else, while still belonging to the WPP Sangha, he could have conducted the ordination in defiance of the prevailing decision and risked excommunication. In such an event, at least, the decision to proceed with bhikkhuni ordination would have been made openly and after a final attempt at persuasion had failed. Six more weeks of waiting, and the issue could have been decided by a simple up or down vote. As it is, by conducting the ordination in a secretive way, without giving sufficient heed to the opinions and feelings of others in his tradition, he has caused divisions, belligerence, and pain which, with more circumspection, might have been avoided or at least reduced.

The opinion I express here is in full accord with the qualifications that I made in the full version of my Hamburg presentation, which I will cite as an appendix to this letter. Please be assured that, while I express these reservations about the way Ajahn Brahm proceeded in this affair, I still lend him my moral support just as much as I support the revival of bhikkhuni ordination in the Theravāda tradition.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------


metta
Chris
---The trouble is that you think you have time---
---Worry is the Interest, paid in advance, on a debt you may never owe---
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by pink_trike » Fri Nov 20, 2009 7:32 am

...thus hurt feelings would have been minimized.


Interesting.
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