Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
Bankei
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Bankei » Mon Nov 09, 2009 6:17 am

gavesako wrote:The Buddhist Channel: Why the imposed "silence" on the Wat Pah Pong / Bhikkuni Ordination issue
by Lim Kooi Fong, Editorial, The Buddhist Channel, Nov 8, 2009

Kuala Lumpur, Malaysia -- On November 6, 2009, the Buddhist Channel imposed an editorial decision which contravened its mission statement, which is "Free Inquiry, Right Speech, One Dharma".

On that day, we made a decision to "cease the publication of any further news or updates with regards to the Wat Pa Pong / Western Buddhist Sangha situation." (...)

http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php ... 68,0,0,1,0" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Thanks Bhante.

In the article on the Buddhist Channel it says Bhikkhu Bodhi issued a statement of support but retracted it 3 days later.

Does anyone know what was behind this??

Bankei
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Bankei

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Bankei » Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:00 am

Yes Bankei I know about it.

There is a message about this here http://sujato.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

It seems Bhikkhu Bodhi has become concerned about the secrecy aspects and said it would have been preferrable if Bhikkhu Brahm had waiting for the WAM in December before proceding.

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Bankei

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by DNS » Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:05 am

Bankei wrote: There is a message about this here http://sujato.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
But fortunately, he (Bhikkhu Bodhi) is still in full support as he always has been:
I first want to make it absolutely clear that in principle I fully support bhikkhuni ordination. I regard the women who have taken this ordination, whether from lineages based in the so-called “Mahayana countries” or from the recently emergent Theravada bhikkhunis, as legitimately ordained bhikkhunis, fully entitled to participate in the Sangha acts prescribed for them in the Vinaya. I also believe that a full-scale revival of the Bhikkhuni Sangha and its unqualified acceptance by the Bhikkhu Sangha is an imperative for the Theravāda tradition in our time.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by DNS » Mon Nov 09, 2009 7:09 am

phalanyani wrote: Ajahn brahm dared something that might seem to be wrong now to some, but it will help to establish Buddhism in the west. Women are kind of tired of religions that try to tell them that they are lower, unworthier, that they can not ...
That's just not what the Buddha taught. And there are sources enough for us to hear, read, see and understand that it is not so. Buddha taught there is no difference between men and women, that's what makes Buddhism so attractive to women.

May the fourfold society of Bhikkhus, Bhikkhunis, laymen and laywomen grow strong in the west. Not traditions are worth to be followed - the lord Buddhas Dhamma is!
:bow:

Thank you for your post and your work for the Dhamma!

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by appicchato » Tue Nov 10, 2009 6:01 pm


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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by mikenz66 » Fri Nov 13, 2009 2:18 am

There is now a website with various letters expressing the Wat Pah Pong point of view. Some of them rather interesting:
http://dhammalight.org/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

Discussion continues at Ven Sujato's Blog
http://sujato.wordpress.com/" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
and
http://www.buddhistchannel.tv/index.php" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by roni » Sun Nov 15, 2009 11:17 am

Some more links:

Scholarly article on the garudhammas by Nirmala S. Salgado: http://www.buddhistethics.org/15/salgado-article.pdf" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Present - the Voices and Activities of Theravadan Buddhist Women: http://www.bhikkhuni.net/PresentIndex.asp" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;
Facebook site "Women & the Forest Sangha": http://www.facebook.com/topic.php?uid=1 ... 3235999615" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by cooran » Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:29 pm

Bhikkhu Pesala wrote:
Raga Mala wrote:The most important point and that to which we must continually return is that the bhikkhuni ordination is UNARGUABLY a valid Vinaya practice under the rules of the Vinaya Pitaka.
If so, why is there any dispute about it? Shouting doesn't make something true. It merely indicates that you are strongly attached to your opinion, which is almost certain to lead to arguments. It is better to follow Ajahn Chah's advice — it is not sure.

In my opinion, this matter should be left to the Sangha to discuss and resolve, especially the Thai Forest Sangha. Those who are not well informed about the Vinaya are very likely to make akusala kamma in discussing this topic.

Well said, Ven Pesala. I think the unskilful method is what objections are being raised about - and it is being implied that to object to what Brahmavamso did is to oppose the ordination of women. This is not so.

metta and respect
Chris
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Nov 15, 2009 7:48 pm

Chris, others,
Chris wrote: Well said, Ven Pesala. I think the unskilful method is what objections are being raised about - and it is being implied that to object to what Brahmavamso did is to oppose the ordination of women. This is not so.
I agree. I find it very sad that these events have led to polarizations, and are being used as a one-dimensional defining classifier. From reading various comments on the internet it seems that in the eyes of some anyone who is not 100% behind full Bhikkhunni ordination RIGHT NOW (or preferably earlier) is hopelessly conservative.

Ajahn Sumedho's recent talk addressing a group of nuns about to leave the UK for the USA is worth listening to and pondering:
http://www.dhammatalks.org.uk/mp3s/dt/T ... to_USA.mp3" onclick="window.open(this.href);return false;

I wish the Bhikkhunis, Bhikkhus, and all beings, success in awakening...

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Vardali » Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:23 pm

Chris wrote:...
Well said, Ven Pesala. I think the unskilful method is what objections are being raised about - and it is being implied that to object to what Brahmavamso did is to oppose the ordination of women. This is not so.
...
While there is definitely one issue about procedure - and it seems indeed that the ordination issue might have been handled more skillfully (with hindsight at least)-, I think it has also been made clear by WPP that it DOES oppose the ordination of women within in the Theravada/Thai Forest tradition (in Thailand and it's branches abroad):

"... the Sangha of Wat Nong Pah Pong and its branches in Thailand and abroad had made a decision against ordaining Bhikkhunis, which was restated many times .... The individuals concerned cannot be considered Theravada Bhikkhunis, as this status contradicts the law of the Mahatherasamakhom, the Sangha administration of the Theravada order in Thailand. Ajahn Brahmavamso had been continually informed of this law ..."
http://www.dhammalight.com/official/WPP ... ation.html

With that in mind, it is interesting to see who does - and does not - focus exclusively on the procedure issue while - perhaps conveniently - ignore the content issue.

I was pleased to see that branches of Forest tradition in Germany have since stated their commitment to the "original" understanding of Dhamma-Vinaya and its intent to support the fourfold sangha-set up (monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen) as a community of equals (I couldn't find an English translation, otherwise I would have linked the statement).
I still hope that other sanghas will also take a positive stand in this matter.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by mikenz66 » Sun Nov 15, 2009 9:53 pm

Hi Vardali,
Vardali wrote: With that in mind, it is interesting to see who does - and does not - focus exclusively on the procedure issue while - perhaps conveniently - ignore the content issue.
As I said above, I believe that it is rather one-dimensional to assume that anyone who does not come out 100% in support of the ordination in Perth is opposed to Bhikkhuni ordination, or opposed to women, or opposed to whatever the assumer happens to be in favour of...

I would rather assume that the issues are complex.

Metta
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by BudSas » Mon Nov 16, 2009 12:05 am

Vardali wrote:
I was pleased to see that branches of Forest tradition in Germany have since stated their commitment to the "original" understanding of Dhamma-Vinaya and its intent to support the fourfold sangha-set up (monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen) as a community of equals (I couldn't find an English translation, otherwise I would have linked the statement).
That's interesting. However, I'm not surprised (as I wrote earlier in this thread, on Nov 05).

BDS

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by pilgrim » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:22 am

Vardali wrote:
Chris wrote:...
I was pleased to see that branches of Forest tradition in Germany have since stated their commitment to the "original" understanding of Dhamma-Vinaya and its intent to support the fourfold sangha-set up (monks, nuns, laymen and laywomen) as a community of equals (I couldn't find an English translation, otherwise I would have linked the statement).
I still hope that other sanghas will also take a positive stand in this matter.
Pls give us the link anyway. I don't know german but sometimes can roughly make out what a phrase says.

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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by cooran » Mon Nov 16, 2009 5:57 am

Yes, Vardali, .... I'd like to see the link and the actual information about the branches of the Forest Tradition in Germany also please.

metta
Chris
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Re: Bhikkhuni Ordination performed - by Ajahn Brahmavamso

Post by Vardali » Mon Nov 16, 2009 7:38 pm

pilgrim wrote:--
Pls give us the link anyway. I don't know german but sometimes can roughly make out what a phrase says.
Here you go, the statement of the associatione/society concerning bhikkhuni ordination in the Thai tradition
http://www.theravadablog.de/2009/11/14/waldkloster-e-v/

And here the monastries this group is covering in Germany.
http://www.buddhistisches-waldkloster.de/kloester.html

:anjali:

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