paṇḍaka

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
User avatar
Kim OHara
Posts: 5017
Joined: Wed Dec 09, 2009 5:47 am
Location: North Queensland, Australia

Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:49 am

There has recently been quite a long discussion of pandakas on the :spy: other :spy: Wheel - https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=26114.

:coffee:
Kim

User avatar
LG2V
Posts: 285
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2012 10:40 pm

Re: paṇḍaka

Post by LG2V » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:48 am

How does Ven. Vakkali fit into this? He was supposedly a gay man who ordained and attained arahantship. Was he gay? If so, would he have qualified as a pandaka?

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
"For a long time, Lord, I have wanted to come and set eyes on the Blessed One, but I had not the strength in this body to come and see the Blessed One."

"Enough, Vakkali! What is there to see in this vile body? He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma."

More of his story in this Dharmafarers pdf: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... TQTJiKYteh
Here are some excellent sites for giving free Dana (Click-Based Donation):
http://freerice.comhttp://greatergood.com/www.ripple.orgwww.thenonprofits.com

User avatar
Invokingvajras
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 2:48 am
Contact:

Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Invokingvajras » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:26 am

Upon reading Bonhard's essay, I can't say I'm convinced that "pakkhapaṇḍaka" simply refers to a hypersexual or person or someone who behaves badly in sexual matters.

Firstly, it would seem that all types of paṇḍaka are charged with a sort of psychophysical dysfunction that is beyond their ability to ameliorate. The vinaya abounds with monks who have overactive sexual tendencies, including but not limited to necrophilia, zoophilia, and adultery. Nevertheless, it would seem that sexual immorality and perversion of this sort does not make one a "paṇḍaka."

Secondly, Sanskrit texts do refer to this type as "pakṣa" and not "phakka." Bonhard notes a few possible definitions of the former term.

(a) ‘side of the body, flank, wing, feathers’; (b) ‘side, party, faction’; (c) ‘one half of the (lunar) month, a fortnight.’

This is very reminiscent of the conversation happening among some people who identify as "genderqueer," especially regarding the fluctuation of gender.

Keep in mind that this does not necessarily place all forms of nonbinary gender within the category of "paṇḍaka." Ven. Sheng Yen of Dharma Drum Chan has described the belief of bodhisattva mahasattvas as including the idea that some of them are "androgynous (中性 lit. "middle sex/gender)."
Spiraling Down the Middle Path

♒⚡~Musā me bhaṇamānāya muddhā phalatu sattadhā~⚡♒

User avatar
Invokingvajras
Posts: 8
Joined: Mon May 08, 2017 2:48 am
Contact:

Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Invokingvajras » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:51 pm

It also recently occurred to me that there is a potential relationship between the two types of paṇḍaka that are allowed ordination, namely, oral and visual fixation.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixation_(psychology)
Spiraling Down the Middle Path

♒⚡~Musā me bhaṇamānāya muddhā phalatu sattadhā~⚡♒

manas
Posts: 2471
Joined: Thu Jul 22, 2010 3:04 am
Location: Melbourne, Australia

Re: paṇḍaka

Post by manas » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:53 am

karuna_murti wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:46 am
I think we have to take it that such persons are in fact capable of awakening.
Hi, I don't think sexual or gender orientation has anything to do with whether or not one is capable of awakening. We straight folks also identify as 'male' or as 'female' and our attraction to the opposite sex, is based on that - yet the body (or mind) should not be regarded as 'me' or as 'mine'. In that sense, all of us who still have sexual desire, whether gay or straight, are equally deluded, are we not?

Regarding gay men in a monastery though, it might not be appropriate to place a gay individual among a Monastic Community of the gender they are attracted to - that would be like, a monk trying to practice for calm and non-agitation, whilst living among nuns - not an appropriate situation!

Sweeney
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:11 am

Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Sweeney » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:47 pm

manas wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:53 am
Regarding gay men in a monastery though, it might not be appropriate to place a gay individual among a Monastic Community of the gender they are attracted to - that would be like, a monk trying to practice for calm and non-agitation, whilst living among nuns - not an appropriate situation!
But what is to stop such a monk from finding a secluded place in which to develop his practice of mindfulness... To elaborate even further on the matter, what would be so attractive about a mass of heterosexual Bhikkhus? Although there may of course be other gay monks within such a monastic community, through maturity and dedication to the Dhamma-Vinaya, this still shouldn't pose as such an inappropriate situation, as with all other monastics present within the community, they should be focused on reaching nibbana...

I realise all this may come across as a little idealistic, but another point I would like to make here, is that homosexual acts are not necessarily committed exclusively by homosexuals. Many a straight man has penetrated a homosexual simply to satisfy his desires and then tossed them aside like a used dishcloth. And I think this point is made very clearly in the Vinaya concerning Parajika offenses, in which the Buddha list numerous different beings in which it is inappropriate to have sexual intercourse with. Which, I would like to add, also makes it clear, that homosexual is not what is meant by pandaka as some have suggested.
Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ
Kusalassa upasampadā
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ
Etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ
~ Dhp 183 ~

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 4236
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Rubber Forest, Phrao, Chiangmai

Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:19 pm

Sweeney wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:47 pm
But what is to stop such a monk from finding a secluded place in which to develop his practice of mindfulness...
The Vinaya, which requires that the early years after his ordination (at least the first five, and ideally the first ten) have to be spent living in dependence on a teacher. In practice this will virtually always entail living in a community. Admittedly in practice this is a rule that's more honoured in the breach nowadays, and so if a man wanted to just get ordained and then go gallivanting off by himself he could probably get away with it. He wouldn't, however, be doing things properly.

User avatar
Polar Bear
Posts: 1204
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am
Location: Bear Republic

Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Polar Bear » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:55 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:19 pm
Sweeney wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:47 pm
But what is to stop such a monk from finding a secluded place in which to develop his practice of mindfulness...
The Vinaya, which requires that the early years after his ordination (at least the first five, and ideally the first ten) have to be spent living in dependence on a teacher. In practice this will virtually always entail living in a community. Admittedly in practice this is a rule that's more honoured in the breach nowadays, and so if a man wanted to just get ordained and then go gallivanting off by himself he could probably get away with it. He wouldn't, however, be doing things properly.
Venerable Anālayo in his book From Grasping to Emptiness in the chapter on Seclusion mentions what seems to be an exception to this:
Thus dwelling in seclusion is an expression of having reached some degree of maturity in one's practice. Such maturity can, however, arise at a rather early stage in one's practice. The Vinaya recognizes this, as it gives a special allowance for a newly ordained monk to be exempted from the otherwise obligatory need to live in dependence on a teacher, in case he finds solace in living in seclusion in a remote forest dwelling (Vin I 92).

Page 139

https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... asping.pdf
I don’t know how to find the passage in the Vinaya though. And it seems this would only apply to those who are skilled practitioners. Do you know what passage he’s referring to Bhante?

:anjali:
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

User avatar
Dhammanando
Posts: 4236
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2008 10:44 pm
Location: Ban Sri Pradu Rubber Forest, Phrao, Chiangmai

Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:48 am

Polar Bear wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:55 am
I don’t know how to find the passage in the Vinaya though. And it seems this would only apply to those who are skilled practitioners. Do you know what passage he’s referring to Bhante?
Yes. The allowance applies in situations where there is no bhikkhu available who is qualified to give nissaya. A bhikkhu taking advantage of it needn't be a skilled practitioner. However, to avoid committing the offence of living without nissaya before he's attained the requisite seniority he has to make a resolve to take nissaya with a qualified thera as soon as one comes along.

User avatar
Polar Bear
Posts: 1204
Joined: Mon Apr 16, 2012 7:39 am
Location: Bear Republic

Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Polar Bear » Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:44 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:48 am
Polar Bear wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:55 am
I don’t know how to find the passage in the Vinaya though. And it seems this would only apply to those who are skilled practitioners. Do you know what passage he’s referring to Bhante?
Yes. The allowance applies in situations where there is no bhikkhu available who is qualified to give nissaya. A bhikkhu taking advantage of it needn't be a skilled practitioner. However, to avoid committing the offence of living without nissaya before he's attained the requisite seniority he has to make a resolve to take nissaya with a qualified thera as soon as one comes along.
I see, thanks Bhante. I found the reference for anyone interested:
The story of guidance for one on a journey, etc.

Now at that time a certain monk was staying in a forest and there came to be comfort for him in this lodging. Then it occurred to this monk: “It is laid down by the Lord that one should not live independently. I am in need of guidance, but I am staying in a forest and there comes to be comfort for me in this lodging. Now what line of conduct should be followed by me?” They told this matter to the Lord.

He said:
“I allow a monk, monks, if he is a forest-dweller and is thinking about abiding in comfort and is not receiving guidance, to live independently, thinking: ‘If a suitable giver of guidance comes along, I will live under his guidance’.

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-kd1/en/horner-brahmali
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

Sweeney
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:11 am

Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Sweeney » Wed Aug 08, 2018 6:09 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:19 pm
Sweeney wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:47 pm
But what is to stop such a monk from finding a secluded place in which to develop his practice of mindfulness...
The Vinaya, which requires that the early years after his ordination (at least the first five, and ideally the first ten) have to be spent living in dependence on a teacher. In practice this will virtually always entail living in a community. Admittedly in practice this is a rule that's more honoured in the breach nowadays, and so if a man wanted to just get ordained and then go gallivanting off by himself he could probably get away with it. He wouldn't, however, be doing things properly.
Yes it is true that in accordance with the Vinaya, it is inevitable the he will have to have some form of association with with the monastic community in one form or another weather it be his mentor, or it be during the rains retreat. Which still leads me to my later remark that through maturity and dedication to the Dhamma-Vinaya it still should not pose as such an inappropriate situation. Does one start accumulating sensual desire towards ones mother simply because she is the only women around? No she is ones mother. As such, through maturity one hopes to overcome sensual desire, inasmuch would one not recognise "fellow Bhikkhu", "ones teacher and mentor"?

I would also not go as far as to say that one is "necessarily" gallivanting off by himself. If he finds it suitable for his temperament and practice, then one is merely trying to establish a solid base for his practice. Excuse me if I'm wrong, but that is the same reason one becomes a Bhikkhu is it not? Of course if one is fueled by false expectations and delusions of grandeur then gallivanting of by himself is most likely not a wise choice, although I would think that it would probably be a sound lesson in ones own abilities.
Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ
Kusalassa upasampadā
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ
Etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ
~ Dhp 183 ~

Sweeney
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:11 am

Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Sweeney » Wed Aug 08, 2018 10:26 am

I would also like to add here, that it seems peculiar that the most common interpretation of pandaka is eunuch, as wouldn't a eunuch (especially one since early childhood) be a perfect candidate for celibacy being as they lack sexual hormones (although not necessarily sexual desire). Weren't eunuchs once trusted servants to royal courts and women? Which is what is so bizarre about the pandaka is that it is supposedly an individual with an uncontrollable sexual desire. Although maybe this stems from a discriminatory viewpoint of eunuchs being nothing more than prostitutes... Who knows, we probably never will.

Also I find it interesting on the topic of hermaphrodites; lets say I take a pragmatist stance, and lets say that hypothetically, the reason that the Buddha would not let them ordain (because they would supposedly entice other monks) is because these so called "heterosexual" men have very limited control of their sexuality and take any external stimuli as reason to feel seduced whether the hermaphrodite (or women!) was trying to seduce him or not... Just an idea. But I think a lot of men would do themselves well to take responsibility for their own sensual desires rather than trying to blame women and gender queer individuals.
Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ
Kusalassa upasampadā
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ
Etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ
~ Dhp 183 ~

User avatar
pitakele
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 11:27 pm

Re: paṇḍaka

Post by pitakele » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:55 pm

:zzz:
manas wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:53 am
Regarding gay men in a monastery though, it might not be appropriate to place a gay individual among a Monastic Community of the gender they are attracted to - that would be like, a monk trying to practice for calm and non-agitation, whilst living among nuns - not an appropriate situation!
It is quite likely that there is a similar percentage of gay men & women in robes as there is in the wider population. There may be problems for some depending on their natural propensity for lust and also how well they are practising indriyasamvara. I know several gay Westerners who ordained for long periods. Amongst these, one practised in the Ajahn Chah forest tradition for ten years, and another has been in robes for many decades (mostly living alone).
now here = nowhere

Sweeney
Posts: 30
Joined: Mon Jun 20, 2016 5:11 am

Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Sweeney » Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:20 pm

pitakele wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:55 pm
It is quite likely that there is a similar percentage of gay men & women in robes as there is in the wider population.
Quite likely indeed. I think what a lot of heterosexuals don't understand is that a lot of homosexuals are actually really good at suppressing their sexuality. You've gotta hide it from your friends and your family, to the point where you can't even open up to anybody emotionally, let alone sexually.
Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ
Kusalassa upasampadā
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ
Etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ
~ Dhp 183 ~

User avatar
pitakele
Posts: 139
Joined: Wed May 30, 2018 11:27 pm

Re: paṇḍaka

Post by pitakele » Thu Aug 09, 2018 12:44 pm

Sweeney wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:20 pm
I think what a lot of heterosexuals don't understand is that a lot of homosexuals are actually really good at suppressing their sexuality. You've gotta hide it from your friends and your family, to the point where you can't even open up to anybody emotionally, let alone sexually.
I would hope that in these modern times, it has become generally easier for individuals to be open about their sexuality. However, I know this varies greatly, depending on country, culture and religion.

Some of the gay Western monks I knew were very closeted. One was a skilful teacher during his years in robes. He unfortunately died in an accident a few years after disrobing, and it was only at his funeral that his friends came to know he'd been living with his gay lover. Before that, nobody would have suspected he was gay.

It is very healthy for all us to cultivate emotional openness. It is a great blessing if we have friends or confidantes with whom we can discuss anything. If not, we may be able to seek out indviduals or groups who will be happy to hear our story.
now here = nowhere

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: sma and 22 guests