paṇḍaka

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Kim OHara
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:49 am

There has recently been quite a long discussion of pandakas on the :spy: other :spy: Wheel - https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=26114.

:coffee:
Kim

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LG2V
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by LG2V » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:48 am

How does Ven. Vakkali fit into this? He was supposedly a gay man who ordained and attained arahantship. Was he gay? If so, would he have qualified as a pandaka?

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
"For a long time, Lord, I have wanted to come and set eyes on the Blessed One, but I had not the strength in this body to come and see the Blessed One."

"Enough, Vakkali! What is there to see in this vile body? He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma."

More of his story in this Dharmafarers pdf: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... TQTJiKYteh
Here are some excellent sites for giving free Dana (Click-Based Donation):
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Invokingvajras
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Invokingvajras » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:26 am

Upon reading Bonhard's essay, I can't say I'm convinced that "pakkhapaṇḍaka" simply refers to a hypersexual or person or someone who behaves badly in sexual matters.

Firstly, it would seem that all types of paṇḍaka are charged with a sort of psychophysical dysfunction that is beyond their ability to ameliorate. The vinaya abounds with monks who have overactive sexual tendencies, including but not limited to necrophilia, zoophilia, and adultery. Nevertheless, it would seem that sexual immorality and perversion of this sort does not make one a "paṇḍaka."

Secondly, Sanskrit texts do refer to this type as "pakṣa" and not "phakka." Bonhard notes a few possible definitions of the former term.

(a) ‘side of the body, flank, wing, feathers’; (b) ‘side, party, faction’; (c) ‘one half of the (lunar) month, a fortnight.’

This is very reminiscent of the conversation happening among some people who identify as "genderqueer," especially regarding the fluctuation of gender.

Keep in mind that this does not necessarily place all forms of nonbinary gender within the category of "paṇḍaka." Ven. Sheng Yen of Dharma Drum Chan has described the belief of bodhisattva mahasattvas as including the idea that some of them are "androgynous (中性 lit. "middle sex/gender)."
Spiraling Down the Middle Path

♒⚡~Musā me bhaṇamānāya muddhā phalatu sattadhā~⚡♒

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Invokingvajras
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Invokingvajras » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:51 pm

It also recently occurred to me that there is a potential relationship between the two types of paṇḍaka that are allowed ordination, namely, oral and visual fixation.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixation_(psychology)
Spiraling Down the Middle Path

♒⚡~Musā me bhaṇamānāya muddhā phalatu sattadhā~⚡♒

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manas
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by manas » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:53 am

karuna_murti wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:46 am
I think we have to take it that such persons are in fact capable of awakening.
Hi, I don't think sexual or gender orientation has anything to do with whether or not one is capable of awakening. We straight folks also identify as 'male' or as 'female' and our attraction to the opposite sex, is based on that - yet the body (or mind) should not be regarded as 'me' or as 'mine'. In that sense, all of us who still have sexual desire, whether gay or straight, are equally deluded, are we not?

Regarding gay men in a monastery though, it might not be appropriate to place a gay individual among a Monastic Community of the gender they are attracted to - that would be like, a monk trying to practice for calm and non-agitation, whilst living among nuns - not an appropriate situation!
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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