paṇḍaka

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:13 am

"Bhikkhu Dr. Analayo, a scholar monk has been a strong advocate for bhikkhuni ordination and in his research feels that the Buddha was misrepresented in the texts about being reluctant to ordain women. Ven. Dr. Analayo pointed out an obvious timeline discrepancy that amazingly has gone undetected until now. It involves the deeply held belief that Ananda played an instrumental role in the founding of the bhikkhuni sangha. He was credited, and later chastised by the First Council, for advocating for the ordination of the Buddha's maternal aunt and stepmother, Mahapajapati. In a paper presented at the University of Marburg, Germany, Ven. Dr. Analayo writes, "There are many problems chronologically, however, in the traditional account of Mahaprajapati (from the Commentaries). She first requested ordination five years after Buddha's enlightenment; but Ananda, who requested Buddha on her behalf, first ordained only twenty years after Buddha's enlightenment. Considering that Mahaprajapati, as Buddha's maternal aunt, raised him after his mother's death, she would have been about eighty years old when Ananda was senior enough to make the request."" ... food for thought

there is still such ambiguity about what a paṇḍaka is; one poster even went as far to say the term has been lost to obscurity. how can we surmise the buddha's motivation for banning them. i believe the buddha made it clear anyone with a mind of renunciation was fit for the holy life. i'm not sure the trans military ban is an equivalent issue nor am i too charitable with trump regarding his decision.
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— Ud 5.5

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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:21 pm

"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:25 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:35 am
Greetings,

i recently researched this said reluctance and the 8 rules of respect and if i believe bhikkhu anālayo here, there is a good chance that these are later additions. i've posted some screenshots on imgur of key points he made

http://www.bhikkhuni.net/wp-content/upl ... japati.pdf
http://www.bhikkhuni.net/gender-discrim ... o-bhikkhu/
i still would like to know what he means by the buddha placing nuns in second position given the above
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
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dylanj
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by dylanj » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:59 am

Now at that time a certain eunuch came to have gone forth among the monks. Having approached a number of young monks, he spoke thus: “Come, venerable ones, commit an offence with me.” The monks refused, saying: “Be off, eunuch, depart, eunuch. What need have you?” Refused by the monks, having approached a number of large, fat novices, he spoke thus: “Come, your reverences, commit an offence with me.” The novices refused, saying: “Be off, eunuch, depart, eunuch. What need have you?” Refused by the novices, having approached mahouts
and grooms, he spoke thus: “Come, sirs, commit an offence with me.” The mahouts and grooms committed an offence with him.

These … spread it about, saying: “These recluses, sons of the Sakyans, are eunuchs, and those of them who are not eunuchs, they too commit offences with eunuchs. Thus they are one and all unchaste.” Monks heard these mahouts and grooms who … spread it about. Then these monks told this matter to the Lord. He said:

“Monks, if a eunuch is not ordained, he should not be ordained; if he is ordained, he should be expelled.”
https://suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-kd1
Tena kho pana samayena aññataro paṇḍako bhikkhūsu pabbajito hoti. So dahare dahare bhikkhū upasaṅkamitvā evaṃ vadeti—“etha, maṃ āyasmanto dūsethā”ti. Bhikkhū apasādenti—“nassa, paṇḍaka, vinassa, paṇḍaka, ko tayā attho”ti. So bhikkhūhi apasādito mahante mahante moḷigalle sāmaṇere upasaṅkamitvā evaṃ vadeti—“etha, maṃ āvuso dūsethā”ti. Sāmaṇerā apasādenti—“nassa, paṇḍaka, vinassa, paṇḍaka, ko tayā attho”ti. So sāmaṇerehi apasādito hatthibhaṇḍe assabhaṇḍe upasaṅkamitvā evaṃ vadeti—“etha, maṃ āvuso dūsethā”ti. Hatthibhaṇḍā assabhaṇḍā dūsesuṃ. Te ujjhāyanti khiyyanti vipācenti—“paṇḍakā ime samaṇā sakyaputtiyā. Yepi imesaṃ na paṇḍakā, tepi ime paṇḍake dūsenti. Evaṃ ime sabbeva abrahmacārino”ti. Assosuṃ kho bhikkhū tesaṃ hatthi­bhaṇḍā­naṃ assabhaṇḍānaṃ ujjhāyantānaṃ khiyyantānaṃ vipācentānaṃ. Atha kho te bhikkhū bhagavato etamatthaṃ ārocesuṃ. “Paṇḍako, bhikkhave, anupasampanno na upasam­pā­detabbo, upasampanno nāsetabbo”ti.
https://suttacentral.net/pi/pi-tv-kd1

What I am seeing here is that in the pāli what is banned is "paṇḍaka". There's no exceptions such as which type of paṇḍaka & nothing indicating it means a eunuch aside from the choice of translation. So is it just the commentary that provides basis for concluding it's eunuchs & not other sexual nonconformists? Am I missing something?
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:09 am

also, from AN 10.32
“Kati nu kho, bhante, pāti­mokkhaṭ­ṭhapanā”ti? “Dasa kho, upāli, pāti­mokkhaṭ­ṭhapanā. Katame dasa? Pārājiko tassaṃ parisāyaṃ nisinno hoti, pārājikakathā vippakatā hoti, anupasampanno tassaṃ parisāyaṃ nisinno hoti, anupa­sam­panna­kathā vippakatā hoti, sikkhaṃ paccakkhātako tassaṃ parisāyaṃ nisinno hoti, sikkhaṃ pac­cak­khā­ta­kaka­thā vippakatā hoti, paṇḍako tassaṃ parisāyaṃ nisinno hoti, paṇḍakakathā vippakatā hoti, ­bhik­khu­ni­dūsako tassaṃ parisāyaṃ nisinno hoti, ­bhik­khu­ni­dūsaka­kathā vippakatā hoti—ime kho, upāli, dasa pāti­mokkhaṭ­ṭhapanā”ti.

Bhante, how many reasons are there for suspending the Pātimokkha?”

“There are, Upāli, ten reasons for suspending the Pātimokkha. What ten? (1) One who has committed a pārājika is sitting in that assembly; (2) a discussion about one who has committed a pārājika is underway; (3) one not fully ordained is sitting in that assembly; (4) a discussion about one not fully ordained is underway; (5) one who has given up the training is sitting in that assembly; (6) a discussion about one who has given up the training is underway; (7) a eunuch is sitting in that assembly; (8) a discussion about a eunuch is underway; (9) a seducer of a bhikkhunī is sitting in that assembly; (10) a discussion about a seducer of a bhikkhunī is underway. These are the ten reasons for suspending the Pātimokkha.”

https://suttacentral.net/en/an10.32

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Kim OHara
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:49 am

There has recently been quite a long discussion of pandakas on the :spy: other :spy: Wheel - https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=26114.

:coffee:
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by LG2V » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:48 am

How does Ven. Vakkali fit into this? He was supposedly a gay man who ordained and attained arahantship. Was he gay? If so, would he have qualified as a pandaka?

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
"For a long time, Lord, I have wanted to come and set eyes on the Blessed One, but I had not the strength in this body to come and see the Blessed One."

"Enough, Vakkali! What is there to see in this vile body? He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma."

More of his story in this Dharmafarers pdf: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... TQTJiKYteh
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Invokingvajras » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:26 am

Upon reading Bonhard's essay, I can't say I'm convinced that "pakkhapaṇḍaka" simply refers to a hypersexual or person or someone who behaves badly in sexual matters.

Firstly, it would seem that all types of paṇḍaka are charged with a sort of psychophysical dysfunction that is beyond their ability to ameliorate. The vinaya abounds with monks who have overactive sexual tendencies, including but not limited to necrophilia, zoophilia, and adultery. Nevertheless, it would seem that sexual immorality and perversion of this sort does not make one a "paṇḍaka."

Secondly, Sanskrit texts do refer to this type as "pakṣa" and not "phakka." Bonhard notes a few possible definitions of the former term.

(a) ‘side of the body, flank, wing, feathers’; (b) ‘side, party, faction’; (c) ‘one half of the (lunar) month, a fortnight.’

This is very reminiscent of the conversation happening among some people who identify as "genderqueer," especially regarding the fluctuation of gender.

Keep in mind that this does not necessarily place all forms of nonbinary gender within the category of "paṇḍaka." Ven. Sheng Yen of Dharma Drum Chan has described the belief of bodhisattva mahasattvas as including the idea that some of them are "androgynous (中性 lit. "middle sex/gender)."
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Invokingvajras » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:51 pm

It also recently occurred to me that there is a potential relationship between the two types of paṇḍaka that are allowed ordination, namely, oral and visual fixation.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixation_(psychology)
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by manas » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:53 am

karuna_murti wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:46 am
I think we have to take it that such persons are in fact capable of awakening.
Hi, I don't think sexual or gender orientation has anything to do with whether or not one is capable of awakening. We straight folks also identify as 'male' or as 'female' and our attraction to the opposite sex, is based on that - yet the body (or mind) should not be regarded as 'me' or as 'mine'. In that sense, all of us who still have sexual desire, whether gay or straight, are equally deluded, are we not?

Regarding gay men in a monastery though, it might not be appropriate to place a gay individual among a Monastic Community of the gender they are attracted to - that would be like, a monk trying to practice for calm and non-agitation, whilst living among nuns - not an appropriate situation!
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Sweeney » Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:47 pm

manas wrote:
Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:53 am
Regarding gay men in a monastery though, it might not be appropriate to place a gay individual among a Monastic Community of the gender they are attracted to - that would be like, a monk trying to practice for calm and non-agitation, whilst living among nuns - not an appropriate situation!
But what is to stop such a monk from finding a secluded place in which to develop his practice of mindfulness... To elaborate even further on the matter, what would be so attractive about a mass of heterosexual Bhikkhus? Although there may of course be other gay monks within such a monastic community, through maturity and dedication to the Dhamma-Vinaya, this still shouldn't pose as such an inappropriate situation, as with all other monastics present within the community, they should be focused on reaching nibbana...

I realise all this may come across as a little idealistic, but another point I would like to make here, is that homosexual acts are not necessarily committed exclusively by homosexuals. Many a straight man has penetrated a homosexual simply to satisfy his desires and then tossed them aside like a used dishcloth. And I think this point is made very clearly in the Vinaya concerning Parajika offenses, in which the Buddha list numerous different beings in which it is inappropriate to have sexual intercourse with. Which, I would like to add, also makes it clear, that homosexual is not what is meant by pandaka as some have suggested.
Sabbapāpassa akaraṇaṃ
Kusalassa upasampadā
Sacittapariyodapanaṃ
Etaṃ buddhāna sāsanaṃ
~ Dhp 183 ~

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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Dhammanando » Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:19 pm

Sweeney wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:47 pm
But what is to stop such a monk from finding a secluded place in which to develop his practice of mindfulness...
The Vinaya, which requires that the early years after his ordination (at least the first five, and ideally the first ten) have to be spent living in dependence on a teacher. In practice this will virtually always entail living in a community. Admittedly in practice this is a rule that's more honoured in the breach nowadays, and so if a man wanted to just get ordained and then go gallivanting off by himself he could probably get away with it. He wouldn't, however, be doing things properly.

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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Polar Bear » Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:55 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 10:19 pm
Sweeney wrote:
Tue Aug 07, 2018 2:47 pm
But what is to stop such a monk from finding a secluded place in which to develop his practice of mindfulness...
The Vinaya, which requires that the early years after his ordination (at least the first five, and ideally the first ten) have to be spent living in dependence on a teacher. In practice this will virtually always entail living in a community. Admittedly in practice this is a rule that's more honoured in the breach nowadays, and so if a man wanted to just get ordained and then go gallivanting off by himself he could probably get away with it. He wouldn't, however, be doing things properly.
Venerable Anālayo in his book From Grasping to Emptiness in the chapter on Seclusion mentions what seems to be an exception to this:
Thus dwelling in seclusion is an expression of having reached some degree of maturity in one's practice. Such maturity can, however, arise at a rather early stage in one's practice. The Vinaya recognizes this, as it gives a special allowance for a newly ordained monk to be exempted from the otherwise obligatory need to live in dependence on a teacher, in case he finds solace in living in seclusion in a remote forest dwelling (Vin I 92).

Page 139

https://www.buddhismuskunde.uni-hamburg ... asping.pdf
I don’t know how to find the passage in the Vinaya though. And it seems this would only apply to those who are skilled practitioners. Do you know what passage he’s referring to Bhante?

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"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Dhammanando » Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:48 am

Polar Bear wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:55 am
I don’t know how to find the passage in the Vinaya though. And it seems this would only apply to those who are skilled practitioners. Do you know what passage he’s referring to Bhante?
Yes. The allowance applies in situations where there is no bhikkhu available who is qualified to give nissaya. A bhikkhu taking advantage of it needn't be a skilled practitioner. However, to avoid committing the offence of living without nissaya before he's attained the requisite seniority he has to make a resolve to take nissaya with a qualified thera as soon as one comes along.

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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Polar Bear » Wed Aug 08, 2018 5:44 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 3:48 am
Polar Bear wrote:
Wed Aug 08, 2018 1:55 am
I don’t know how to find the passage in the Vinaya though. And it seems this would only apply to those who are skilled practitioners. Do you know what passage he’s referring to Bhante?
Yes. The allowance applies in situations where there is no bhikkhu available who is qualified to give nissaya. A bhikkhu taking advantage of it needn't be a skilled practitioner. However, to avoid committing the offence of living without nissaya before he's attained the requisite seniority he has to make a resolve to take nissaya with a qualified thera as soon as one comes along.
I see, thanks Bhante. I found the reference for anyone interested:
The story of guidance for one on a journey, etc.

Now at that time a certain monk was staying in a forest and there came to be comfort for him in this lodging. Then it occurred to this monk: “It is laid down by the Lord that one should not live independently. I am in need of guidance, but I am staying in a forest and there comes to be comfort for me in this lodging. Now what line of conduct should be followed by me?” They told this matter to the Lord.

He said:
“I allow a monk, monks, if he is a forest-dweller and is thinking about abiding in comfort and is not receiving guidance, to live independently, thinking: ‘If a suitable giver of guidance comes along, I will live under his guidance’.

https://suttacentral.net/pli-tv-kd1/en/horner-brahmali
"I don't envision a single thing that, when developed & cultivated, leads to such great benefit as the mind. The mind, when developed & cultivated, leads to great benefit."

"I don't envision a single thing that, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about such suffering & stress as the mind. The mind, when undeveloped & uncultivated, brings about suffering & stress."

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