paṇḍaka

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Oct 06, 2017 5:13 am

"Bhikkhu Dr. Analayo, a scholar monk has been a strong advocate for bhikkhuni ordination and in his research feels that the Buddha was misrepresented in the texts about being reluctant to ordain women. Ven. Dr. Analayo pointed out an obvious timeline discrepancy that amazingly has gone undetected until now. It involves the deeply held belief that Ananda played an instrumental role in the founding of the bhikkhuni sangha. He was credited, and later chastised by the First Council, for advocating for the ordination of the Buddha's maternal aunt and stepmother, Mahapajapati. In a paper presented at the University of Marburg, Germany, Ven. Dr. Analayo writes, "There are many problems chronologically, however, in the traditional account of Mahaprajapati (from the Commentaries). She first requested ordination five years after Buddha's enlightenment; but Ananda, who requested Buddha on her behalf, first ordained only twenty years after Buddha's enlightenment. Considering that Mahaprajapati, as Buddha's maternal aunt, raised him after his mother's death, she would have been about eighty years old when Ananda was senior enough to make the request."" ... food for thought

there is still such ambiguity about what a paṇḍaka is; one poster even went as far to say the term has been lost to obscurity. how can we surmise the buddha's motivation for banning them. i believe the buddha made it clear anyone with a mind of renunciation was fit for the holy life. i'm not sure the trans military ban is an equivalent issue nor am i too charitable with trump regarding his decision.
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Tue Oct 17, 2017 8:21 pm

"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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Dhammarakkhito
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Sat Jan 13, 2018 11:25 am

retrofuturist wrote:
Fri Oct 06, 2017 4:35 am
Greetings,

i recently researched this said reluctance and the 8 rules of respect and if i believe bhikkhu anālayo here, there is a good chance that these are later additions. i've posted some screenshots on imgur of key points he made

http://www.bhikkhuni.net/wp-content/upl ... japati.pdf
http://www.bhikkhuni.net/gender-discrim ... o-bhikkhu/
i still would like to know what he means by the buddha placing nuns in second position given the above
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
https://sites.google.com/site/santipada ... allytaught

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dylanj
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by dylanj » Fri Jan 26, 2018 7:59 am

Now at that time a certain eunuch came to have gone forth among the monks. Having approached a number of young monks, he spoke thus: “Come, venerable ones, commit an offence with me.” The monks refused, saying: “Be off, eunuch, depart, eunuch. What need have you?” Refused by the monks, having approached a number of large, fat novices, he spoke thus: “Come, your reverences, commit an offence with me.” The novices refused, saying: “Be off, eunuch, depart, eunuch. What need have you?” Refused by the novices, having approached mahouts
and grooms, he spoke thus: “Come, sirs, commit an offence with me.” The mahouts and grooms committed an offence with him.

These … spread it about, saying: “These recluses, sons of the Sakyans, are eunuchs, and those of them who are not eunuchs, they too commit offences with eunuchs. Thus they are one and all unchaste.” Monks heard these mahouts and grooms who … spread it about. Then these monks told this matter to the Lord. He said:

“Monks, if a eunuch is not ordained, he should not be ordained; if he is ordained, he should be expelled.”
https://suttacentral.net/en/pi-tv-kd1
Tena kho pana samayena aññataro paṇḍako bhikkhūsu pabbajito hoti. So dahare dahare bhikkhū upasaṅkamitvā evaṃ vadeti—“etha, maṃ āyasmanto dūsethā”ti. Bhikkhū apasādenti—“nassa, paṇḍaka, vinassa, paṇḍaka, ko tayā attho”ti. So bhikkhūhi apasādito mahante mahante moḷigalle sāmaṇere upasaṅkamitvā evaṃ vadeti—“etha, maṃ āvuso dūsethā”ti. Sāmaṇerā apasādenti—“nassa, paṇḍaka, vinassa, paṇḍaka, ko tayā attho”ti. So sāmaṇerehi apasādito hatthibhaṇḍe assabhaṇḍe upasaṅkamitvā evaṃ vadeti—“etha, maṃ āvuso dūsethā”ti. Hatthibhaṇḍā assabhaṇḍā dūsesuṃ. Te ujjhāyanti khiyyanti vipācenti—“paṇḍakā ime samaṇā sakyaputtiyā. Yepi imesaṃ na paṇḍakā, tepi ime paṇḍake dūsenti. Evaṃ ime sabbeva abrahmacārino”ti. Assosuṃ kho bhikkhū tesaṃ hatthi­bhaṇḍā­naṃ assabhaṇḍānaṃ ujjhāyantānaṃ khiyyantānaṃ vipācentānaṃ. Atha kho te bhikkhū bhagavato etamatthaṃ ārocesuṃ. “Paṇḍako, bhikkhave, anupasampanno na upasam­pā­detabbo, upasampanno nāsetabbo”ti.
https://suttacentral.net/pi/pi-tv-kd1

What I am seeing here is that in the pāli what is banned is "paṇḍaka". There's no exceptions such as which type of paṇḍaka & nothing indicating it means a eunuch aside from the choice of translation. So is it just the commentary that provides basis for concluding it's eunuchs & not other sexual nonconformists? Am I missing something?
susukhaṁ vata nibbānaṁ,
sammā­sambud­dha­desitaṁ;
asokaṁ virajaṁ khemaṁ,
yattha dukkhaṁ nirujjhatī


Oh! extinction is so very blissful,
As taught by the One Rightly Self-Awakened:
Sorrowless, stainless, secure;
Where suffering all ceases


etaṁ santaṁ etaṁ paṇītaṁ yadidaṁ sabbasaṅkhārasamatho sabbūpadhipaṭi nissaggo taṇhakkhayo virāgo nirodho nibbānaṁ

This is peaceful, this is excellent, that is: the stilling of all preparations, the relinquishment of all attachments, the destruction of craving, detachment, cessation, extinction.

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DooDoot
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by DooDoot » Fri Jan 26, 2018 9:09 am

also, from AN 10.32
“Kati nu kho, bhante, pāti­mokkhaṭ­ṭhapanā”ti? “Dasa kho, upāli, pāti­mokkhaṭ­ṭhapanā. Katame dasa? Pārājiko tassaṃ parisāyaṃ nisinno hoti, pārājikakathā vippakatā hoti, anupasampanno tassaṃ parisāyaṃ nisinno hoti, anupa­sam­panna­kathā vippakatā hoti, sikkhaṃ paccakkhātako tassaṃ parisāyaṃ nisinno hoti, sikkhaṃ pac­cak­khā­ta­kaka­thā vippakatā hoti, paṇḍako tassaṃ parisāyaṃ nisinno hoti, paṇḍakakathā vippakatā hoti, ­bhik­khu­ni­dūsako tassaṃ parisāyaṃ nisinno hoti, ­bhik­khu­ni­dūsaka­kathā vippakatā hoti—ime kho, upāli, dasa pāti­mokkhaṭ­ṭhapanā”ti.

Bhante, how many reasons are there for suspending the Pātimokkha?”

“There are, Upāli, ten reasons for suspending the Pātimokkha. What ten? (1) One who has committed a pārājika is sitting in that assembly; (2) a discussion about one who has committed a pārājika is underway; (3) one not fully ordained is sitting in that assembly; (4) a discussion about one not fully ordained is underway; (5) one who has given up the training is sitting in that assembly; (6) a discussion about one who has given up the training is underway; (7) a eunuch is sitting in that assembly; (8) a discussion about a eunuch is underway; (9) a seducer of a bhikkhunī is sitting in that assembly; (10) a discussion about a seducer of a bhikkhunī is underway. These are the ten reasons for suspending the Pātimokkha.”

https://suttacentral.net/en/an10.32

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Kim OHara
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Kim OHara » Fri Jan 26, 2018 10:49 am

There has recently been quite a long discussion of pandakas on the :spy: other :spy: Wheel - https://dharmawheel.net/viewtopic.php?f=66&t=26114.

:coffee:
Kim

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LG2V
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by LG2V » Sat Jan 27, 2018 1:48 am

How does Ven. Vakkali fit into this? He was supposedly a gay man who ordained and attained arahantship. Was he gay? If so, would he have qualified as a pandaka?

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .wlsh.html
"For a long time, Lord, I have wanted to come and set eyes on the Blessed One, but I had not the strength in this body to come and see the Blessed One."

"Enough, Vakkali! What is there to see in this vile body? He who sees Dhamma, Vakkali, sees me; he who sees me sees Dhamma. Truly seeing Dhamma, one sees me; seeing me one sees Dhamma."

More of his story in this Dharmafarers pdf: https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q ... TQTJiKYteh
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Invokingvajras
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Invokingvajras » Sat Feb 10, 2018 9:26 am

Upon reading Bonhard's essay, I can't say I'm convinced that "pakkhapaṇḍaka" simply refers to a hypersexual or person or someone who behaves badly in sexual matters.

Firstly, it would seem that all types of paṇḍaka are charged with a sort of psychophysical dysfunction that is beyond their ability to ameliorate. The vinaya abounds with monks who have overactive sexual tendencies, including but not limited to necrophilia, zoophilia, and adultery. Nevertheless, it would seem that sexual immorality and perversion of this sort does not make one a "paṇḍaka."

Secondly, Sanskrit texts do refer to this type as "pakṣa" and not "phakka." Bonhard notes a few possible definitions of the former term.

(a) ‘side of the body, flank, wing, feathers’; (b) ‘side, party, faction’; (c) ‘one half of the (lunar) month, a fortnight.’

This is very reminiscent of the conversation happening among some people who identify as "genderqueer," especially regarding the fluctuation of gender.

Keep in mind that this does not necessarily place all forms of nonbinary gender within the category of "paṇḍaka." Ven. Sheng Yen of Dharma Drum Chan has described the belief of bodhisattva mahasattvas as including the idea that some of them are "androgynous (中性 lit. "middle sex/gender)."
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Invokingvajras
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by Invokingvajras » Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:51 pm

It also recently occurred to me that there is a potential relationship between the two types of paṇḍaka that are allowed ordination, namely, oral and visual fixation.

See: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fixation_(psychology)
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manas
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Re: paṇḍaka

Post by manas » Sun Feb 25, 2018 2:53 am

karuna_murti wrote:
Sun Jul 05, 2009 3:46 am
I think we have to take it that such persons are in fact capable of awakening.
Hi, I don't think sexual or gender orientation has anything to do with whether or not one is capable of awakening. We straight folks also identify as 'male' or as 'female' and our attraction to the opposite sex, is based on that - yet the body (or mind) should not be regarded as 'me' or as 'mine'. In that sense, all of us who still have sexual desire, whether gay or straight, are equally deluded, are we not?

Regarding gay men in a monastery though, it might not be appropriate to place a gay individual among a Monastic Community of the gender they are attracted to - that would be like, a monk trying to practice for calm and non-agitation, whilst living among nuns - not an appropriate situation!
Knowing this body is like a clay jar,
securing this mind like a fort,
attack Mara with the spear of discernment,
then guard what's won without settling there,
without laying claim.

- Dhp 40

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