How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:47 am

Wind for heat?

Of cause, generally Soth Asian people think that the temperature is different when there is wind (one would not find easy a place where no ventilator is used) and love the refuge in Vedana.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Sep 13, 2012 9:16 am

gavesako wrote:
In colder climates, you really need to have some cloth close to your skin to keep the warmth inside, so woolly jumpers and sweaters and fleece jackets and warm underwear have been used by monks.
in the commentaries of Bhikkhu Ñánadassana's translation of the Pattimokkha it is written:
b) Es ist ein Dukkatavergehen, wenn man solche Kleidung, Wäsche usw. trägt, die Laien tragen (gihi- nivattha-/ párutaη) [CV. 137] Das schließt heutzutage Pullover, Sweater, Jacken, Hosen, Unterhosen, Socken, Kappen, Mützen, Kapuzen usw., ein.
Diese Art von Kleidung ist nicht geeignet für Samanas, nicht vom Buddha gelobt, und sogar kranke Bettelmönche sind nicht frei von Vergehen.
Für kaltes Wetter und für den Winter wurde von ihm das Doppelgewand erlaubt [s. MV. 288f] oder auch Wolldecken (kambala) [MV. 281], wollene usw. Tücher und wenn man die K-Privilegien erhalten hat [s. Kap. 8], dann auch zahllose Gewänder/ Stoffe in die man sich einwickeln kann. Alle diese Stoffe sollen die Form eines Tuches oder Lakens haben.

b) It is a Dukkataoffence if one wears clothes which are wearen by layman (gihi- nivattha-/ párutaη) [CV. 137]. That includes pullower, sweater, jackets, tousers, undertrousers, socks, caps, bonnet, hood,...
This kind of clothes are not adequate for Samanas, not praised by the Buddha, and even for sick begging monks not free from offence.
For cold weather and for the winter the twin-cloth have been allowed [s. MV. 288f] but also woolen blanket (kambala) [MV. 281], woolen rag ... and if one has resived the K-privilegs [s. Kap. 8] than also countless clothes/fabrics which are useable to wrap oneself in it. All this fabrics should have the form of a rag or sheet.

free translation
therefore the request "(How better why) does one in robes deal with winter?" before
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
reflection
Posts: 1116
Joined: Wed Mar 30, 2011 9:27 pm

Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?

Post by reflection » Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:41 am

Image ;)

User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1740
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?

Post by gavesako » Thu Sep 13, 2012 12:44 pm

Hanzze wrote:
gavesako wrote:
In colder climates, you really need to have some cloth close to your skin to keep the warmth inside, so woolly jumpers and sweaters and fleece jackets and warm underwear have been used by monks.
in the commentaries of Bhikkhu Ñánadassana's translation of the Pattimokkha it is written:
b) Es ist ein Dukkatavergehen, wenn man solche Kleidung, Wäsche usw. trägt, die Laien tragen (gihi- nivattha-/ párutaη) [CV. 137] Das schließt heutzutage Pullover, Sweater, Jacken, Hosen, Unterhosen, Socken, Kappen, Mützen, Kapuzen usw., ein.
Diese Art von Kleidung ist nicht geeignet für Samanas, nicht vom Buddha gelobt, und sogar kranke Bettelmönche sind nicht frei von Vergehen.
Für kaltes Wetter und für den Winter wurde von ihm das Doppelgewand erlaubt [s. MV. 288f] oder auch Wolldecken (kambala) [MV. 281], wollene usw. Tücher und wenn man die K-Privilegien erhalten hat [s. Kap. 8], dann auch zahllose Gewänder/ Stoffe in die man sich einwickeln kann. Alle diese Stoffe sollen die Form eines Tuches oder Lakens haben.

b) It is a Dukkataoffence if one wears clothes which are wearen by layman (gihi- nivattha-/ párutaη) [CV. 137]. That includes pullower, sweater, jackets, tousers, undertrousers, socks, caps, bonnet, hood,...
This kind of clothes are not adequate for Samanas, not praised by the Buddha, and even for sick begging monks not free from offence.
For cold weather and for the winter the twin-cloth have been allowed [s. MV. 288f] but also woolen blanket (kambala) [MV. 281], woolen rag ... and if one has resived the K-privilegs [s. Kap. 8] than also countless clothes/fabrics which are useable to wrap oneself in it. All this fabrics should have the form of a rag or sheet.

free translation
therefore the request "(How better why) does one in robes deal with winter?" before

I have seen Thai Dhammayut monks who want to be "strict" wearing funny poncho-like blankets over their shoulders in the winter, but that made them look very funny and not like monks actually. Also it is totally impractical and one can barely move in such clothing, which is why these Asian monks hardly ever leave their central-heated housing in cold climate countries and only wait for the laypeople to bring them food. On the other hand, if one really wants to adapt skilfully to the radically different climate in order to make Buddhism livable there, one can choose a different colour of one's jumpers and sweaters and jackets which are not worn by laymen. Also one can still wear the robe on top as shown on the picture from Canada above. I think this is a much better option and in line with the mahapadesa principles of the Buddha.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:06 pm

What if simply just make it liveable if the conditios are liveable? Cold weather has much impact on dependency and the tendence to need to fall apart of the rules.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
gavesako
Posts: 1740
Joined: Sun Jan 04, 2009 5:16 pm

Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?

Post by gavesako » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:14 pm

Maybe there is a reason why the Buddha appears in a warm-climate country (Jambudipa = India) rather than somewhere in Siberia for example. But that does not mean that Buddhism cannot spread to other geographical areas. As we can see on the Vinaya stories, when monks went to live further away from the Ganges valley, they asked for special permissions regarding clothing, shoes, etc. and the Buddha made such allowances for them.
Bhikkhu Gavesako
Kiṃkusalagavesī anuttaraṃ santivarapadaṃ pariyesamāno... (MN 26)

Access to Insight - Theravada texts
Ancient Buddhist Texts - Translations and history of Pali texts
Dhammatalks.org - Sutta translations

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:21 pm

Still the desire of going further is not stilled... It's always cetana. Would he even give the permission to fly?
To wander to the south before the winter comes would be easy possible today in europa (for example) and the spreeding while wandering would be enorm.

Personaly I would not have any concept, could not imagen of how to keep monastic rules when conditions are under 0° C and it'S not only a matter of clothes, it touches all four requisites as well as to turn away from the rules in there regards.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
appicchato
Posts: 1603
Joined: Wed Dec 31, 2008 12:47 am
Location: Bridge on the River Kwae

Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?

Post by appicchato » Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:53 pm

Image

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?

Post by Hanzze » Thu Sep 13, 2012 2:04 pm

Photoshoped? Just ask because your face is like in the warm, not a little red from the cold. Southasians are professional photoshoper.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
Ytrog
Posts: 693
Joined: Thu Sep 16, 2010 4:50 pm
Location: The Netherlands, near Arnhem
Contact:

Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?

Post by Ytrog » Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:46 pm

I don't think it is photoshopped tbh.
Suffering is asking from life what it can never give you.
mindfulness, bliss and beyond (page 8) wrote:Do not linger on the past. Do not keep carrying around coffins full of dead moments
If you see any unskillful speech (or other action) from me let me know, so I can learn from it.

User avatar
Hanzze
Posts: 1906
Joined: Mon Oct 04, 2010 12:47 pm
Location: Cambodia

Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?

Post by Hanzze » Sun Sep 16, 2012 12:11 am

Maybe Ven. Appicchato uses the wind element as nimitta. :smile: My fault, was somehow kidding. Dont take that to serious. Sorry, not useful.

But I came across a sutta yesterday I would like to share:
To Hatthaka - On Sleeping Well in the Cold Forest

On one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Alavi on a spread of leaves by a cattle track in a simsapa forest. Then Hatthaka of Alavi, out roaming & rambling for exercise, saw the Blessed One sitting on a spread of leaves by the cattle track in the simsapa forest. On seeing him, he went to him and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One, "Lord, I hope the Blessed One has slept in ease."

"Yes, young man. I have slept in ease. Of those in the world who sleep in ease, I am one."

"But cold, lord, is the winter night. The 'Between-the-Eights'[1] is a time of snowfall. Hard is the ground trampled by cattle hooves. Thin is the spread of leaves. Sparse are the leaves in the trees. Thin are your ochre robes. And cold blows the Verambha wind. Yet still the Blessed One says, 'Yes, young man. I have slept in ease. Of those in the world who sleep in ease, I am one.'"

"In that case, young man, I will question you in return. Answer as you see fit. Now, what do you think: Suppose a householder or householder's son has a house with a gabled roof, plastered inside & out, draft-free, with close-fitting door & windows shut against the wind. Inside he has a horse-hair couch spread with a long-fleeced coverlet, a white wool coverlet, an embroidered coverlet, a rug of kadali-deer hide, with a canopy above, & red cushions on either side. And there a lamp would be burning, and his four wives, with their many charms, would be attending to him. Would he sleep in ease, or not? Or how does this strike you?"

"Yes, lord, he would sleep in ease. Of those in the world who sleep in ease, he would be one."

"But what do you think, young man. Might there arise in that householder or householder's son any bodily fevers or fevers of mind born of passion so that — burned with those passion-born fevers — he would sleep miserably?"

"Yes, lord."

"As for those passion-born fevers — burned with which the householder or householder's son would sleep miserably — that passion has been abandoned by the Tathagata, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Therefore he sleeps in ease.

"Now, what do you think, young man. Might there arise in that householder or householder's son any bodily fevers or fevers of mind born of aversion so that — burned with those aversion-born fevers — he would sleep miserably?"

"Yes, lord."

"As for those aversion-born fevers — burned with which the householder or householder's son would sleep miserably — that aversion has been abandoned by the Tathagata, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Therefore he sleeps in ease.

"Now, what do you think, young man. Might there arise in that householder or householder's son any bodily fevers or fevers of mind born of delusion so that — burned with those delusion-born fevers — he would sleep miserably?"

"Yes, lord."

"As for those delusion-born fevers — burned with which the householder or householder's son would sleep miserably — that delusion has been abandoned by the Tathagata, its root destroyed, made like a palmyra stump, deprived of the conditions of development, not destined for future arising. Therefore he sleeps in ease.
"Always, always, he sleeps in ease: the brahman totally unbound, who doesn't adhere to sensual pleasures, who's without acquisitions & cooled. Having cut all ties & subdued fear in the heart, calmed, he sleeps in ease, having reached peace of awareness."

1. The "Between-the-Eights" is a period in February, regarded in northern India as the coldest part of the year.
Just that! *smile*
...We Buddhists must find the courage to leave our temples and enter the temples of human experience, temples that are filled with suffering. If we listen to Buddha, Christ, or Gandhi, we can do nothing else. The refugee camps, the prisons, the ghettos, and the battlefields will become our temples. We have so much work to do. ... Peace is Possible! Step by Step. - Samtach Preah Maha Ghosananda "Step by Step" http://www.ghosananda.org/bio_book.html

BUT! it is important to become a real Buddhist first. Like Punna did: Punna Sutta Nate sante baram sokham _()_

User avatar
khemindas
Posts: 88
Joined: Sun Dec 07, 2014 8:06 am
Location: Myanmar
Contact:

Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?

Post by khemindas » Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:45 am

I want to see how the Sangha will stay in next environment

Saengnapha
Posts: 1350
Joined: Wed Sep 13, 2017 10:17 am

Re: How do monks deal with their robes in the winter?

Post by Saengnapha » Sun Jan 28, 2018 5:59 am

khemindas wrote:
Sat Jan 27, 2018 11:45 am
I want to see how the Sangha will stay in next environment
Perhaps Adidas and Nike will outfit the monks of the future. Why should the poor monks have to think about their clothing. Off the rack is a good solution. Team Theravada vs Team Mahayana or Vajrayana or.........Sri Lanka vs Thailand vs Myanmar, etc. Of course, all of this would be a merit making venture and provided gratis. :lol:

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 15 guests