Laylife not an easy holy life = hard to survive?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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dhammapal
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Laylife not an easy holy life = hard to survive?

Post by dhammapal »

Majjhima 82 wrote:Then Ratthapala, rising from his seat, bowing down to the Blessed One and keeping him on his right, went to his parents and said, "Mom, Dad, as I understand the Dhamma taught by the Blessed One, it's not easy, living at home, to practice the holy life totally perfect, totally pure, a polished shell. I want — having shaved off my hair & beard and putting on the ochre robe — to go forth from the household life into homelessness. Please give me your permission to go forth from the household life into homelessness."
From: Ratthapala Sutta: About Ratthapala
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
Is a major reason for becoming a monastic that it is hard to survive financially in a Right Livelihood as a layperson? I vaguely remember a sutta where the Buddha says that people ordain not because they can't make a livelihood.

Thanks / dhammapal.
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Ben
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Re: Laylife not an easy holy life = hard to survive?

Post by Ben »

Greetings Dhammapal,
dhammapal wrote:Is a major reason for becoming a monastic that it is hard to survive financially in a Right Livelihood as a layperson? I vaguely remember a sutta where the Buddha says that people ordain not because they can't make a livelihood.
I would say that a major reason why people go forth is to make an end of suffering, not because one can't find a job.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

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BKh
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Re: Laylife not an easy holy life = hard to survive?

Post by BKh »

dhammapal wrote: Is a major reason for becoming a monastic that it is hard to survive financially in a Right Livelihood as a layperson?
I think the passage you quoted is indicating that it is not easy to live a very pure life as a householder, not necessarily that it is hard to survive financially by doing so. For example you may have a job that is completely in accordance with right livelihood, but as a householder there are many distractions.
dhammapal wrote:I vaguely remember a sutta where the Buddha says that people ordain not because they can't make a livelihood.
Perhaps you are thinking of this passage...
They have not been forced into it by kings or robbers, nor through debt, through fear, nor through the loss of their livelihood, but through the thought: 'We are beset by birth, aging, & death, by sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs, beset by stress, overcome with stress. O, that the end of this entire mass of suffering & stress might be known!'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-091
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SDC
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Re: Laylife not an easy holy life = hard to survive?

Post by SDC »

BKh wrote:I think the passage you quoted is indicating that it is not easy to live a very pure life as a householder, not necessarily that it is hard to survive financially by doing so. For example you may have a job that is completely in accordance with right livelihood, but as a householder there are many distractions.
Well said.
“Life is swept along, short is the life span; no shelters exist for one who has reached old age. Seeing clearly this danger in death, a seeker of peace should drop the world’s bait.” SN 1.3
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Goofaholix
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Re: Laylife not an easy holy life = hard to survive?

Post by Goofaholix »

Ben wrote:I would say that a major reason why people go forth is to make an end of suffering, not because one can't find a job.
kind regards,
I suspect in Thailand the opposite is true.
Pronouns (no self / not self)
“Peace is within oneself to be found in the same place as agitation and suffering. It is not found in a forest or on a hilltop, nor is it given by a teacher. Where you experience suffering, you can also find freedom from suffering. Trying to run away from suffering is actually to run toward it.”
― Ajahn Chah
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Ben
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Re: Laylife not an easy holy life = hard to survive?

Post by Ben »

Goofaholix wrote:
Ben wrote:I would say that a major reason why people go forth is to make an end of suffering, not because one can't find a job.
kind regards,
I suspect in Thailand the opposite is true.
Thanks for the clarification, Goof.
kind regards,

Ben
“No lists of things to be done. The day providential to itself. The hour. There is no later. This is later. All things of grace and beauty such that one holds them to one's heart have a common provenance in pain. Their birth in grief and ashes.”
- Cormac McCarthy, The Road

Learn this from the waters:
in mountain clefts and chasms,
loud gush the streamlets,
but great rivers flow silently.
- Sutta Nipata 3.725

Compassionate Hands Foundation (Buddhist aid in Myanmar) • Buddhist Global ReliefUNHCR

e: [email protected]..
dhammapal
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Re: Laylife not an easy holy life = hard to survive?

Post by dhammapal »

BKh wrote:
dhammapal wrote: Is a major reason for becoming a monastic that it is hard to survive financially in a Right Livelihood as a layperson?
I think the passage you quoted is indicating that it is not easy to live a very pure life as a householder, not necessarily that it is hard to survive financially by doing so. For example you may have a job that is completely in accordance with right livelihood, but as a householder there are many distractions.
dhammapal wrote:I vaguely remember a sutta where the Buddha says that people ordain not because they can't make a livelihood.
Perhaps you are thinking of this passage...
They have not been forced into it by kings or robbers, nor through debt, through fear, nor through the loss of their livelihood, but through the thought: 'We are beset by birth, aging, & death, by sorrows, lamentations, pains, distresses, & despairs, beset by stress, overcome with stress. O, that the end of this entire mass of suffering & stress might be known!'
http://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitaka ... ml#iti-091
Thanks Bhante! I'm sorry I didn't mean to be disrespectful: I'm having problems seeking a Right Livelihood (I am on welfare) and was looking for reassurance that the Buddha thought it was feasible for everyone to survive as an ethically sound self-sufficient layperson and that monastic life was not a safety net. So I'm thinking that I should focus on acquiring productive skills rather than envying the freedoms and status of being a monk. Even monks have lots of practical skills e.g. I saw the video Buddha comes to Sussex where the monks were cleaning up the mess at the old Chithurst House in the late '70s.

The passage I quoted is from Majjhima 82 Ratthapala Sutta. Ratthapala is offered vast wealth to revert to the lower life so he is not an example of my question. He even says:
Majjhima 82 wrote:"Householder, if you'd do as I say, you would have this heap of gold & silver loaded on carts and hauled away to be dumped midstream in the river Ganges. Why is that? This [wealth] will be the cause of your sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair."
From: Ratthapala Sutta: About Ratthapala
translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu
With metta / dhammapal.
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