Monastics protesting social injustice

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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DooDoot
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by DooDoot »

binocular wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:23 am
While I feel strongly put off by political activism by Buddhist monks, I am also aware that it's _their_ religion/spirituality and they can do with it whatever they want.
Monks must set an example. Their speech cannot be worse than what is expected in the secular world. Monk Sujato merely had to speak the truth, namely: "We have a president with multiple allegations of rape & sexual harassment against him".
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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BrokenBones
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by BrokenBones »

Aloka wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:52 am
BrokenBones wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:29 am
It's hardly heavy handed 'policing' to call out an outright untruth given by someone who's supposed to be upholding and spreading the Dhamma. Political ideology and hatred has no place in the Buddha's Dhamma. If monks choose to engage in such lowly public talk then they invite censure by the public. Would it be better if laypeople ignored poor behaviour in the Sangha?
Was your post directed at me Mr/Ms Bones? I was making a light- hearted comment about internet groups in general and not intentionally refering to anything connected to monks!

.
It's Mx actually ;-)
Apologies if I reacted contrary to the actual intent of your post... humour doesn't always translate well on the net.

Metta

binocular
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by binocular »

BrokenBones wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:30 am
I'm a lay Buddhist... it's my religion as much as anyone else's. The 'pledge' to the Dhamma at its most basic level is the five precepts and refuge... it's perfectly legitimate to call out a high ranking representative if they're putting themselves out there with their political ideas wrapped in 'Dharma'. A monk 'cannot' do whatever they want with 'their' religion... or at least if they do they lay themselves open to comment.
So what? It's not like those comments ever accomplish anything or make the monk change his ways. In the worst case, they earn the lay commenter a negative reputation and a threat of kammic retribution for having spoken out against a monk and disrespected him.

- - -
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:31 am
Monks must set an example.
One thing I've learned among Buddhists is that expecting anything from Buddhists, esp. from monks, is too much. Even just expecting common decency or common courtesy is too much.
Their speech cannot be worse than what is expected in the secular world.
Lol. Dream on.
Buddhists are not limited by the rules of the world, remember?
“One doesn’t become a witch to run around being harmful, or to run around being helpful either, a district visitor on a broomstick. It’s to escape all that - to have a life of one’s own, not an existence doled out to by others.”
― Sylvia Townsend Warner, Lolly Willowes

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Sam Vara
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:15 am
One thing I've learned among Buddhists is that expecting anything from Buddhists, esp. from monks, is too much. Even just expecting common decency or common courtesy is too much.
There's an open invitation to meet whichever monk (Ahimsako or Sucitto, normally) hosts the online Cittaviveka lay forum. A talk followed by Q&A. I'm pretty sure you will receive uncommon decency and uncommon courtesy. The time difference between Slovenia and the UK can't be too different. Sunday afternoons. Let me know and I'll arrange the Zoom password for you.

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Sam Vara
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Sam Vara »

DooDoot wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:31 am
binocular wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 9:23 am
While I feel strongly put off by political activism by Buddhist monks, I am also aware that it's _their_ religion/spirituality and they can do with it whatever they want.
Monks must set an example. Their speech cannot be worse than what is expected in the secular world. Monk Sujato merely had to speak the truth, namely: "We have a president with multiple allegations of rape & sexual harassment against him".
:goodpost: :anjali:

BrokenBones
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by BrokenBones »

binocular wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:15 am
BrokenBones wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 10:30 am
I'm a lay Buddhist... it's my religion as much as anyone else's. The 'pledge' to the Dhamma at its most basic level is the five precepts and refuge... it's perfectly legitimate to call out a high ranking representative if they're putting themselves out there with their political ideas wrapped in 'Dharma'. A monk 'cannot' do whatever they want with 'their' religion... or at least if they do they lay themselves open to comment.
So what? It's not like those comments ever accomplish anything or make the monk change his ways. In the worst case, they earn the lay commenter a negative reputation and a threat of kammic retribution for having spoken out against a monk and disrespected him.
Ah... the good old threat of kammic retribution... the Dhamma equivalent of Godwin's Law... how many Lama's/monks have used that line for their own nefarious ends? And by your logic, nobody should have dialogue with anybody nor comment on others 'teachings'... you won't make me change my ways nor I yours... it's a wonder the Buddha bothered preaching at all. Perhaps criticism may prompt someone to examine their own speech/actions. Btw... a perusal of tos might be beneficial.

Metta

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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

BrokenBones wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:29 am
It's hardly heavy handed 'policing' to call out an outright untruth
The thing is you do not know that it is an untruth. That is your opinion. The bhikkhu's opinion may well be that what he said is correct. You and the Bhikkhu have differing opinions.

There is plenty to suggest that the US president is of low moral character, from a Buddhist perspective, like him or not.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man
There is plenty to suggest that the US president is of low moral character, from a Buddhist perspective, like him or not.
Most world leaders are
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.


Visuddhimagga

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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:39 pm
Mr Man
There is plenty to suggest that the US president is of low moral character, from a Buddhist perspective, like him or not.
Most world leaders are
We can certainly agree on that. :smile:

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Bhikkhu_Jayasara
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara »

BrokenBones wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:29 am
. If monks choose to engage in such lowly public talk then they invite censure by the public.
This is essentially the crux of the issue. The monk then gets mired in the worldly battles instead of striving to rise above them.
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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:59 pm
BrokenBones wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:29 am
. If monks choose to engage in such lowly public talk then they invite censure by the public.
This is essentially the crux of the issue. The monk then gets mired in the worldly battles instead of striving to rise above them.
Bhante, The monk is a Maha Thera who has done a great deal for the Sasana. Do you feel his behaviour is inappropriate and if so on what grounds?

binocular
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by binocular »

BrokenBones wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 12:35 pm
Ah... the good old threat of kammic retribution... the Dhamma equivalent of Godwin's Law... how many Lama's/monks have used that line for their own nefarious ends? And by your logic, nobody should have dialogue with anybody nor comment on others 'teachings'... you won't make me change my ways nor I yours... it's a wonder the Buddha bothered preaching at all.
It's not my logic.

I've learned from Buddhists that if one doesn't like something, one must leave. No discussion, no negotiation, no clarification, no reciprocation, nothing, just all or nothing.
Maybe not every Buddhist is that way, but this is the bottom line.

This is not a criticism. If Buddhists want Buddhism to be this way, that's their thing. It's their religion/spirituality.
Perhaps criticism may prompt someone to examine their own speech/actions.
Implying that the critic was right?
Btw... a perusal of tos might be beneficial.
Why??
“One doesn’t become a witch to run around being harmful, or to run around being helpful either, a district visitor on a broomstick. It’s to escape all that - to have a life of one’s own, not an existence doled out to by others.”
― Sylvia Townsend Warner, Lolly Willowes

binocular
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by binocular »

Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:49 am
binocular wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:15 am
One thing I've learned among Buddhists is that expecting anything from Buddhists, esp. from monks, is too much. Even just expecting common decency or common courtesy is too much.
There's an open invitation to meet whichever monk (Ahimsako or Sucitto, normally) hosts the online Cittaviveka lay forum. A talk followed by Q&A. I'm pretty sure you will receive uncommon decency and uncommon courtesy. The time difference between Slovenia and the UK can't be too different. Sunday afternoons. Let me know and I'll arrange the Zoom password for you.
I can't be bothered to look up what fallacy exactly you're making. The issue was that expectations are misplaced.
“One doesn’t become a witch to run around being harmful, or to run around being helpful either, a district visitor on a broomstick. It’s to escape all that - to have a life of one’s own, not an existence doled out to by others.”
― Sylvia Townsend Warner, Lolly Willowes

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Bhikkhu_Jayasara
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara »

Mr Man wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:17 pm
Bhikkhu_Jayasara wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 1:59 pm
BrokenBones wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 8:29 am
. If monks choose to engage in such lowly public talk then they invite censure by the public.
This is essentially the crux of the issue. The monk then gets mired in the worldly battles instead of striving to rise above them.
Bhante, The monk is a Maha Thera who has done a great deal for the Sasana. Do you feel his behaviour is inappropriate and if so on what grounds?
The title Maha Thera is not an indication of any kind of real wisdom in and of itself from my experience sadly, as the Buddha said you have to live with someone for a long time to see how they really are. That does not mean a monastic is not worthy of respect, but just because someone is a Maha Thera does not mean their actions should not be questioned. This is the case even in the Vinaya, where the junior monastic is expected to call out the senior monastic who is their preceptor/acariya and support them in stopping unskillful behavior.

Bhante Sujato is not my preceptor or acariya, he lives on the other side of the world from me, I've never met him, nor lived with him. Has he done things that are red flags to me? yes. has he done wonderful things for the sasana? yes, in fact he is part of the group of 4 monastics(Gunaratana, Analayo, Brahmali, Sujato) who's scholarship I trust and check my understanding against regularly. but in essence all I have are his writings, translations, and internet posts, so how can I have anything but a cursory understanding of who Bhante is?

As I said in my last post, my response is to support the monks who you feel are practicing rightly, and allow others to support those who they feel are practicing rightly, regardless how you feel about that monk.
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Sam Vara
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Sam Vara »

binocular wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 2:34 pm
Sam Vara wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:49 am
binocular wrote:
Sun Aug 02, 2020 11:15 am
One thing I've learned among Buddhists is that expecting anything from Buddhists, esp. from monks, is too much. Even just expecting common decency or common courtesy is too much.
There's an open invitation to meet whichever monk (Ahimsako or Sucitto, normally) hosts the online Cittaviveka lay forum. A talk followed by Q&A. I'm pretty sure you will receive uncommon decency and uncommon courtesy. The time difference between Slovenia and the UK can't be too different. Sunday afternoons. Let me know and I'll arrange the Zoom password for you.
I can't be bothered to look up what fallacy exactly you're making. The issue was that expectations are misplaced.
I may have misunderstood. I took your comment to mean that you had expectations that monks would treat you with decency and respect, and that they didn't; and that subsequently, you no longer expect them to behave in that way. Is that right?

If so, then there is an opportunity to meet monks who might amend that expectation by treating you with decency and respect. Is that not good?

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