Monastics protesting social injustice

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

BrokenBones wrote:
Fri Jul 31, 2020 12:03 am
he must have broken numerous Vinaya rules.

Which Vinaya rules do you think he has broken?

BrokenBones
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by BrokenBones »

He's accusing people of crimes for which there is no evidence. He is peddling gossip as actual fact and seems more concerned with other people's behaviour than his own. I'm a lowly householder who gossips and tittle tattles like most others... he has a higher standard to live up to. Political vitriol is not Dhamma. I actually turned it off after his initial statements because if I want left wing ideology I'll tune into CNN... If I tune into a monk... I expect Dhamma.

Metta

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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by binocular »

BrokenBones wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:22 pm
He's accusing people of crimes for which there is no evidence.
In some countries, this is actually a crime.
If you can't build with them, don't chill with them.

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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

BrokenBones wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 12:22 pm
He's accusing people of crimes for which there is no evidence. He is peddling gossip as actual fact and seems more concerned with other people's behaviour than his own. I'm a lowly householder who gossips and tittle tattles like most others... he has a higher standard to live up to. Political vitriol is not Dhamma. I actually turned it off after his initial statements because if I want left wing ideology I'll tune into CNN... If I tune into a monk... I expect Dhamma.

Metta
But you and Ceisiwr seem to be accusing the Bhikkhu of breaking the monastic rule. I am interested to hear if he is actually doing that.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man
But you and Ceisiwr seem to be accusing the Bhikkhu of breaking the monastic rule. I am interested to hear if he is actually doing that.
I asked if he did.
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.


Visuddhimagga

BrokenBones
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by BrokenBones »

False speech is an offence.

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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

BrokenBones wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:34 pm
False speech is an offence.
A deliberate lie is an offence. Do you think he is telling a deliberate lie? I don't.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:35 pm
BrokenBones wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:34 pm
False speech is an offence.
A deliberate lie is an offence. Do you think he is telling a deliberate lie? I don't.
You have evidence that Trump is a child abuser and a rapist? These are quite serious accusations to make against someone. You better have a good reason for accusing someone of those crimes. I'll wait.
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.


Visuddhimagga

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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:48 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:35 pm
BrokenBones wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 1:34 pm
False speech is an offence.
A deliberate lie is an offence. Do you think he is telling a deliberate lie? I don't.
You have evidence that Trump is a child abuser and a rapist? These are quite serious accusations to make against someone. You better have a good reason for accusing someone of those crimes. I'll wait.
I don't think the bhikkhu is telling a deliberate lie. We are talking about whether the Bhikkhu has broken a monastic rule.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:56 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:48 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:35 pm


A deliberate lie is an offence. Do you think he is telling a deliberate lie? I don't.
You have evidence that Trump is a child abuser and a rapist? These are quite serious accusations to make against someone. You better have a good reason for accusing someone of those crimes. I'll wait.
I don't think the bhikkhu is telling a deliberate lie. We are talking about whether the Bhikkhu has broken a monastic rule.
Trump has not been convicted of rape or child abuse, so his words are false. Sujato knows that, but he calls him a rapist anyway. I presume its because he simply does not like Trump. He has, essentially, slandered Mr Trump in what seems like a vain attempt to promote his own brand of political thinking. Needless to say these are quite dastardly tricks indeed.
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.


Visuddhimagga

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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:58 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:56 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:48 pm


You have evidence that Trump is a child abuser and a rapist? These are quite serious accusations to make against someone. You better have a good reason for accusing someone of those crimes. I'll wait.
I don't think the bhikkhu is telling a deliberate lie. We are talking about whether the Bhikkhu has broken a monastic rule.
Trump has not been convicted of rape or child abuse, so his words are false. Sujato knows that, but he calls him a rapist anyway. I presume its likely because he simply does not like Trump. He has, essentially, slandered Mr Trump in what seems like a vain attempt to promote his own brand of political thinking.
I imagine that the Bhikkhu believes what he said is true.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:03 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:58 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:56 pm


I don't think the bhikkhu is telling a deliberate lie. We are talking about whether the Bhikkhu has broken a monastic rule.
Trump has not been convicted of rape or child abuse, so his words are false. Sujato knows that, but he calls him a rapist anyway. I presume its likely because he simply does not like Trump. He has, essentially, slandered Mr Trump in what seems like a vain attempt to promote his own brand of political thinking.
I imagine that the Bhikkhu believes what he said is true.
Well you would. Sujato keeps up enough with current affairs to know that Trump has not been convicted of child abuse or rape, so he knows its a false claim to be making. He knows that it is slander, but he does it anyway. This is not the kind of behaviour I would expect from a bhikkhu. It is the kind of behaviour I would expect from a political activist in robes. In other words, from a renegade monk.
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.


Visuddhimagga

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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:08 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:03 pm
Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 2:58 pm


Trump has not been convicted of rape or child abuse, so his words are false. Sujato knows that, but he calls him a rapist anyway. I presume its likely because he simply does not like Trump. He has, essentially, slandered Mr Trump in what seems like a vain attempt to promote his own brand of political thinking.
I imagine that the Bhikkhu believes what he said is true.
Well you would. Sujato keeps up enough with current affairs to know that Trump has not been convicted of child abuse or rape, so he knows its a false claim to be making. He knows that it is slander, but he does it anyway. This is not the kind of behaviour I would expect from a bhikkhu. It is the kind of behaviour I would expect from a political activist in robes. In other words, from a renegade monk.

So you think that he is telling a deliberate lie and breaking Pacittiya 1?

https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/ ... l#Pc_ChOne

Like I said I imagine that the Bhikkhu believes what he said is true.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Ceisiwr »

Mr Man

So you think that he is telling a deliberate lie and breaking Pacittiya 1?

https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/ ... l#Pc_ChOne
Given how politically engaged he is i struggle to see any other conclusion. Perhaps you could spell out to me how he is not lying? How he knows that Trump abuses children, a fact that somehow his political opponents and indeed law enforcement simply do not know?
Like I said I imagine that the Bhikkhu believes what he said is true.
As I said, you would.
Mere suffering exists, no sufferer is found;
The deeds are, but no doer of the deeds is there;
Nibbāna is, but not the man that enters it;
The path is, but no traveler on it is seen.


Visuddhimagga

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Mr Man
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Re: Monastics protesting social injustice

Post by Mr Man »

Ceisiwr wrote:
Sat Aug 01, 2020 3:21 pm
So you think that he is telling a deliberate lie and breaking Pacittiya 1?

https://www.dhammatalks.org/vinaya/bmc/ ... l#Pc_ChOne
Given how politically engaged he is i struggle to see any other conclusion. Perhaps you could spell out to me how he is not lying? How he knows that Trump abuses children, a fact that somehow his political opponents and indeed law enforcement simply do not know?
I don't think he is intentionally lying because I believe he is of good character.

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