Outdated Vinaya for monks

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
canadianbuddhist
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Re: Outdated Vinaya for monks

Post by canadianbuddhist » Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:34 pm

There you go, i dont say that i dont agree with the valuable suggestions in the thread. But that doesnt say I just stop putting out my thinking and what it really needs. I also think if someone like you " who doesnt belive in the first universal characteristic ANICCA" everything except nibbana has a nature of modification or changes will get what I am raising. I feel people like you have got trapped in the texts only. you guys do not have any wisdom that is not discussed in the present time.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Outdated Vinaya for monks

Post by Ceisiwr » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:14 pm

canadianbuddhist wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:34 pm
There you go, i dont say that i dont agree with the valuable suggestions in the thread. But that doesnt say I just stop putting out my thinking and what it really needs. I also think if someone like you " who doesnt belive in the first universal characteristic ANICCA" everything except nibbana has a nature of modification or changes will get what I am raising. I feel people like you have got trapped in the texts only. you guys do not have any wisdom that is not discussed in the present time.

I have no idea what you just said. Because of anicca we should change the Vinaya? If so that doesn’t seem like a good argument.
“Not taking up any views,
possessing good behaviour, endowed with vision,
having removed greed for sensual pleasures,
one never again comes back to the bed of a womb”
Sn 1.8

canadianbuddhist
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Re: Outdated Vinaya for monks

Post by canadianbuddhist » Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:48 pm

I am trying to see "anicca" as a point to revisit the vinaya rules that are in conflict at this time. Changes do need.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Outdated Vinaya for monks

Post by Ceisiwr » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:09 pm

canadianbuddhist wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 10:48 pm
I am trying to see "anicca" as a point to revisit the vinaya rules that are in conflict at this time. Changes do need.
Just because things are impermanent doesn’t mean we have to change things ourselves. The Vinaya is fabricated. It is anicca, dukkha and anatta. Eventually it will be forgotten and will cease. Until then, I see no need to change the Vinaya. In fact, I see danger in such an approach.

Metta

:)
“Not taking up any views,
possessing good behaviour, endowed with vision,
having removed greed for sensual pleasures,
one never again comes back to the bed of a womb”
Sn 1.8

canadianbuddhist
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Re: Outdated Vinaya for monks

Post by canadianbuddhist » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:12 pm

well, i want to say again, I am talking minor vinaya rules and not the major rules. Looks like you are painting with the same brush.

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Ceisiwr
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Re: Outdated Vinaya for monks

Post by Ceisiwr » Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:38 pm

canadianbuddhist wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 11:12 pm
well, i want to say again, I am talking minor vinaya rules and not the major rules. Looks like you are painting with the same brush.
I understand that, but what is a minor rule that we can do away with was never defined by The Awakened One because Ven. Ananda never asked for clarification. So, because of that I feel it’s best to err on the side of caution and keep all of the rules.

Metta

:)
“Not taking up any views,
possessing good behaviour, endowed with vision,
having removed greed for sensual pleasures,
one never again comes back to the bed of a womb”
Sn 1.8

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Volo
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Re: Outdated Vinaya for monks

Post by Volo » Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:39 am

canadianbuddhist wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 9:34 pm
I also think if someone like you " who doesnt belive in the first universal characteristic ANICCA" everything except nibbana has a nature of modification or changes will get what I am raising. I feel people like you have got trapped in the texts only. you guys do not have any wisdom that is not discussed in the present time.
And here we go: those who disagree with you are not only got trapped in the texts, but also don't accept "anicca" and are deprived of wisdom... :roll:

In any case, it's absolutely irrelevant whether we agree with you or not, since it's not going to change anything. I can only suggest, you find some monks, who have wisdom and believe in the first universal characteristic of anicca, and support them.

santa100
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Re: Outdated Vinaya for monks

Post by santa100 » Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:51 pm

canadianbuddhist wrote:I am trying to see "anicca" as a point to revisit the vinaya rules that are in conflict at this time. Changes do need.
I don't see any conflict that the Vinaya creates. But you are right, due to Anicca, changes are needed... by adding more clarification and Additions, not Removals (as you seem to imply). There're a gazillion of novel unwholesome exposures that did not exist back in the Buddha's time: whole new ways to break the 3rd precept: virtual sex/orgies, sexting, twerking,...; whole new huge list of intoxicants to break the 5th (other than alcohol): coke, crack, meth, ephedrine, etc.; whole new ways of stealing to break the 2nd: stealing ideas, intellectual properties, copyright/patent infringements,...the list goes on and on. So if any, more Vinaya is needed in this day and age, not less.

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Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta
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Re: Outdated Vinaya for monks

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Fri Mar 20, 2020 1:27 pm

santa100 wrote:
Fri Mar 20, 2020 12:51 pm
canadianbuddhist wrote:I am trying to see "anicca" as a point to revisit the vinaya rules that are in conflict at this time. Changes do need.
I don't see any conflict that the Vinaya creates. But you are right, due to Anicca, changes are needed... by adding more clarification and Additions, not Removals (as you seem to imply). There're a gazillion of novel unwholesome exposures that did not exist back in the Buddha's time: whole new ways to break the 3rd precept: virtual sex/orgies, sexting, twerking,...; whole new huge list of intoxicants to break the 5th (other than alcohol): coke, crack, meth, ephedrine, etc.; whole new ways of stealing to break the 2nd: stealing ideas, intellectual properties, copyright/patent infringements,...the list goes on and on. So if any, more Vinaya is needed in this day and age, not less.
:goodpost:
.


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Ceisiwr
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Re: Outdated Vinaya for monks

Post by Ceisiwr » Fri Mar 20, 2020 9:57 pm

Whichever religion marries the spirit of this age will find itself a widower in the next, to paraphrase Inge.
“Not taking up any views,
possessing good behaviour, endowed with vision,
having removed greed for sensual pleasures,
one never again comes back to the bed of a womb”
Sn 1.8

binocular
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Re: Outdated Vinaya for monks

Post by binocular » Fri Mar 20, 2020 11:17 pm

canadianbuddhist wrote:
Thu Mar 19, 2020 1:51 pm
I was expecting a wiser plus an innovative answer. Most of these comments seem to me "either the modernity of a monastics are rebuked with the conservative points" or "just being unable to think differently about the issue". Most of them have always gone to the texts ( which might not always make sense) and wanna think about this question. I am still wondering what could be the role of a 21 st century monastic living (the vinya rules I have mentioned)at this time in a western country (not very conservative places like Malaysia, Thailand, Burma or Sri Lanka)
On principle, men ordain as Buddhist monks in order to be better able to focus on the practice for attaining nibbana.
This was so in the time of the Buddha, and it is so now, and it is the only valid reason for becoming a monk.

The reason for this question is that I already know most of the theravada monks here in US,Canda do all these things which are also okay here both by the country system and the lay devotees. So shouldnt we have to accept this?
Why should we? If everyone else jumps off the bridge, you should too?

sentinel
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Re: Outdated Vinaya for monks

Post by sentinel » Wed Mar 25, 2020 4:56 pm

There were already many monks , actually too many of them trying to adapt to modern society that they start to accept money for example and the rest . However , look at it carefully , degeneration is the outcome . I noticed whenever some monks receive offering in money , one would attracted to it and then compare to other monks how much they receives . Many monks whom trained for over 10 even 20 or 30 years with jhanic attaintment would lost their jhana once they get too much worldly attractions .
Even wearing a robe or shoes could become an attachment . Some prefer shining colours robe and i noticed some nuns wearing pinky colour robe and even shoes . Attachment can Never become Outdated in my experience .
Mr no.2

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