Permission of parents in Sri Lanka ordination

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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frieden311
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Permission of parents in Sri Lanka ordination

Post by frieden311 » Sat Nov 30, 2019 7:32 pm

Hi Dhamma wheel.

Next year I am planning to go to Sri Lanka to seek ordination. I am interested in the Galduwa tradition and Na uyana monastery because of strict Vinaya and meditation practice.

As we know one is asked if one has permission from mother and father in the ceremony. I have told my mother and she's very sad about it but has come to understand, but my father will not accept it no matter what I say.
He's a very unwholesome, alcoholic person, anti-religious and I am sure I can never convince him.

I have heard that some monasteries accept candidates who don't have parent's permission. Even Ajahn Chah did it I think. But I wanted to know if any one has experience with Galduwa tradition or Na uyana and knows what their rules are as regards permission? And maybe if you know other monasteries which allow it, even just for samanera, please let me know also

Thanks.

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Bunks
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Re: Permission of parents in Sri Lanka ordination

Post by Bunks » Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:12 am

Hello there - do you mind me asking how old you are and what country you live in?
Wisdom tells me I’m nothing.
Love tells me I’m everything.
And between the two my life flows.

Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

frieden311
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Re: Permission of parents in Sri Lanka ordination

Post by frieden311 » Sun Dec 01, 2019 1:40 pm

Bunks wrote:
Sun Dec 01, 2019 4:12 am
Hello there - do you mind me asking how old you are and what country you live in?
Hi. I am 20 and am from Mexico

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Bunks
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Re: Permission of parents in Sri Lanka ordination

Post by Bunks » Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:45 pm

Hello there, I spoke to a monk I know who ordained under Ajahn Brahm here in Australia (Ajahn Chah lineage of Thai Forest Tradition). His response is below.

regarding your question below. Giving it simply, no you don't need your parents approval.
This question comes quite often from us Westerners and it was on my mind as well before I ordained. This is one of the questions they will ask you when you ordain. Do you have your parents approval. And you should answer yes. Well what then happens if you say no. These questions does not stop the Sangha ordaining you if they want to go ahead with it. And the ordination is still valid even though you did not get the permission.
This rule came about when Buddha ordained his own son who was still a young boy and Buddhas own father said that you should first ask the guardians of the boy whether it is OK to allow him to ordain. Your parents are no longer taking care of you so you can decide for yourself. It is of course nice thing to tell them that you are going to do this and if they don't specifically tell you NO we won't allow you to do this. Well you can take this as their approval and this is usually the norm these days.


Sorry but I can't help you as far as ordaining in Sri Lanka goes but I know some Sri Lankans so will try and remember to ask them next time I am at the temple.

Best of luck in your endeavours....Sadhu, Sadhu, Sadhu
Wisdom tells me I’m nothing.
Love tells me I’m everything.
And between the two my life flows.

Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

frieden311
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Re: Permission of parents in Sri Lanka ordination

Post by frieden311 » Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:34 am

Bunks wrote:
Wed Dec 04, 2019 9:45 pm
Hello there, I spoke to a monk I know who ordained under Ajahn Brahm here in Australia (Ajahn Chah lineage of Thai Forest Tradition). His response is below.

regarding your question below. Giving it simply, no you don't need your parents approval.
This question comes quite often from us Westerners and it was on my mind as well before I ordained. This is one of the questions they will ask you when you ordain. Do you have your parents approval. And you should answer yes. Well what then happens if you say no. These questions does not stop the Sangha ordaining you if they want to go ahead with it. And the ordination is still valid even though you did not get the permission.
This rule came about when Buddha ordained his own son who was still a young boy and Buddhas own father said that you should first ask the guardians of the boy whether it is OK to allow him to ordain. Your parents are no longer taking care of you so you can decide for yourself. It is of course nice thing to tell them that you are going to do this and if they don't specifically tell you NO we won't allow you to do this. Well you can take this as their approval and this is usually the norm these days.
I see, that makes me feel some hope, thank you. I think my case is even harder because latin americans are probably more close-minded than people in USA or Europe. I think most of us have no idea what is buddhism at all.
I know some Sri Lankans so will try and remember to ask them next time I am at the temple.
Oh yes, that would be great if you can.

Thank you so much. :anjali:

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Bunks
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Re: Permission of parents in Sri Lanka ordination

Post by Bunks » Thu Dec 05, 2019 5:27 am

It’s my pleasure, glad I can help.

Ajahn Brahm is a super compassionate man and ordains monks from all over the world with a wide range of backgrounds.

Might be worth putting your name on the waiting list at his monastery? At the moment they’re in the process of building more monk kuti’s here in Victoria and they were also given (or bought?) some land in Western Australia in order to have more places for monks to ordain.
Wisdom tells me I’m nothing.
Love tells me I’m everything.
And between the two my life flows.

Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

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Dhammanando
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Re: Permission of parents in Sri Lanka ordination

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:52 am

frieden311 wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:34 am
Hello there, I spoke to a monk I know who ordained under Ajahn Brahm here in Australia (Ajahn Chah lineage of Thai Forest Tradition). His response is below.

Giving it simply, no you don't need your parents approval.
I think what the monk means by this rather reckless statement is that ordination candidates can in practice get away with not having their parents' permission even though the Vinaya requires that they do have it and ought not to be ordained if they don't have it.

In other words, you do need to obtain your parents' permission if you wish your ordination to be fully in line with the Buddha's ordinances. Failure to obtain that permission, however, is not included in the list of procedural defects that are serious enough to cause an ordination to be invalid.
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

frieden311
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Re: Permission of parents in Sri Lanka ordination

Post by frieden311 » Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:40 am

Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:52 am
frieden311 wrote:
Thu Dec 05, 2019 12:34 am
Hello there, I spoke to a monk I know who ordained under Ajahn Brahm here in Australia (Ajahn Chah lineage of Thai Forest Tradition). His response is below.

Giving it simply, no you don't need your parents approval.
I think what the monk means by this rather reckless statement is that ordination candidates can in practice get away with not having their parents' permission even though the Vinaya requires that they do have it and ought not to be ordained if they don't have it.

In other words, you do need to obtain your parents' permission if you wish your ordination to be fully in line with the Buddha's ordinances. Failure to obtain that permission, however, is not included in the list of procedural defects that are serious enough to cause an ordination to be invalid.
Hello Bhante, thank you for your answer. So it seems that a bhikkhu that gives pabbaja without permission from parents does an offense of Vinaya. Then I don't know if it would be bad for me also for requesting it if I know the rule. even if I am accepted...

Calmoid
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Re: Permission of parents in Sri Lanka ordination

Post by Calmoid » Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:36 am

If there is no categorical NO but silence (or something like 'grumble grumble' means he isn't really happy about it but he doesn't say strongly NO) in whatever way, it's counted as an YES. Even Buddha gave his approval many times through not disapproving it but just silently accepting it. So not saying NO counts as YES, it is legit.

Or if he likes to say NO more than YES in general, maybe try something like: "Would you mind if I go to Sri Lanka (you could also add: 'for some time' - a life is also just 'some time') and ordain there as a monk? (Can add: 'It really interests me and I like to test it/ experience it for myself')." And if he then says NO well then you have your YES!!

You know your dad, observe when he has soft moments, wait for the right time and place to ask him that, do it in a way as if you would just playing with this crazy thought.

Another supportive means would be if another family member (uncle cousin or so, best someone who hangs around with your dad as well, who is close to the family and a friend of your dad) is also in the room with you and your dad and you hypothetically ask him (ask only that person (a liberal one, a free spirit, someone who doesn't bother others) you know of who would answer in a way "no, why should I, it's your life, do what you like". Straight after that ask your dad and he will more likely answer in the same way in order to stay in tune with his drinking partner! ;)

I don't know your dad but you have to study him a bit and wait for the right time and place and formulate it smartly. You just need a 'non NO'/a silent YES (even if it is not a super joyful cheerful grumble YES, if it is no NO it is a YES), you don't need deep understanding acceptance and whatever from him.

If you get the grumble grumble YES just leave and let him realise later that it was no joke or funny crazy question you've asked him.

He gave you a YES, that counts and is enough to answer the ordination question with a YES.

Different story is if you are the only child and are supposed to look after them in your culture and there is nobody else to look after them instead when they are old.
But if they said not NO and you are free of obligations then there is no obstacle to go for ordination.

Hope you'll find a way.
Hope is good but no match to having a plan, wits and patience!
:heart:

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Dhammanando
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Re: Permission of parents in Sri Lanka ordination

Post by Dhammanando » Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:52 am

frieden311 wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:40 am
Hello Bhante, thank you for your answer. So it seems that a bhikkhu that gives pabbaja without permission from parents does an offense of Vinaya. Then I don't know if it would be bad for me also for requesting it if I know the rule. even if I am accepted...
One would have to live with the fact that one had obtained one's ordination from dodgy monks who think it's okay to cut corners. Who knows what other corners they may have cut?

Ven. Raṭṭhapāla shows the proper way to go about it:
“Have you been permitted by your parents, Raṭṭhapāla, to go forth from the home life into homelessness?”

“No, venerable sir, I have not been permitted by my parents.”

“Raṭṭhapāla, Tathāgatas do not give the going forth to anyone who does not have his parents’ permission.”

“Venerable sir, I shall see to it that my parents permit me to go forth from the home life into homelessness.”
Then, when his parents refused, Raṭṭhapāla went on a hunger strike to force their hand. It worked:
Then the clansman Raṭṭhapāla’s friends went to his parents and said to them: “Mother and father, the clansman Raṭṭhapāla is lying down there on the bare floor, having said: ‘Right here I shall either die or receive the going forth.’ Now if you do not give him your permission to go forth from the home life into homelessness, he will die there. But if you give him your permission, you will see him after he has gone forth. And if he does not enjoy the going forth, what else can he do then but return here? So give him your permission to go forth from the home life into homelessness.”

“Then, dears, we give the clansman Raṭṭhapāla permission to go forth from the home life into homelessness. But when he has gone forth, he must visit his parents.”
https://legacy.suttacentral.net/en/mn82
“Keep to your own pastures, bhikkhus, walk in the haunts where your fathers roamed.
If ye thus walk in them, Māra will find no lodgement, Māra will find no foothold.”
— Cakkavattisīhanāda Sutta

frieden311
Posts: 9
Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:39 pm

Re: Permission of parents in Sri Lanka ordination

Post by frieden311 » Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:00 pm

Calmoid wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:36 am
If there is no categorical NO but silence (or something like 'grumble grumble' means he isn't really happy about it but he doesn't say strongly NO) in whatever way, it's counted as an YES. Even Buddha gave his approval many times through not disapproving it but just silently accepting it. So not saying NO counts as YES, it is legit.

Or if he likes to say NO more than YES in general, maybe try something like: "Would you mind if I go to Sri Lanka (you could also add: 'for some time' - a life is also just 'some time') and ordain there as a monk? (Can add: 'It really interests me and I like to test it/ experience it for myself')." And if he then says NO well then you have your YES!!

You know your dad, observe when he has soft moments, wait for the right time and place to ask him that, do it in a way as if you would just playing with this crazy thought.

Another supportive means would be if another family member (uncle cousin or so, best someone who hangs around with your dad as well, who is close to the family and a friend of your dad) is also in the room with you and your dad and you hypothetically ask him (ask only that person (a liberal one, a free spirit, someone who doesn't bother others) you know of who would answer in a way "no, why should I, it's your life, do what you like". Straight after that ask your dad and he will more likely answer in the same way in order to stay in tune with his drinking partner! ;)

I don't know your dad but you have to study him a bit and wait for the right time and place and formulate it smartly. You just need a 'non NO'/a silent YES (even if it is not a super joyful cheerful grumble YES, if it is no NO it is a YES), you don't need deep understanding acceptance and whatever from him.

If you get the grumble grumble YES just leave and let him realise later that it was no joke or funny crazy question you've asked him.

He gave you a YES, that counts and is enough to answer the ordination question with a YES.

Different story is if you are the only child and are supposed to look after them in your culture and there is nobody else to look after them instead when they are old.
But if they said not NO and you are free of obligations then there is no obstacle to go for ordination.

Hope you'll find a way.
Hope is good but no match to having a plan, wits and patience!
:heart:
Hi, thank you for your answer. That is a good point. But I think I will have to try a little different for him, because when he's good mood I think he's more likely to say no :( And whenever I talk with him he's always angry because I don't want to do what he says (go live with him, make money, graduate, have a girlfriend etc.) So I think my best chance is to try when he's angry and he might say "do whatever you want, but don't talk to me ever again" or something like that.

frieden311
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Re: Permission of parents in Sri Lanka ordination

Post by frieden311 » Sat Dec 07, 2019 4:07 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:52 am
frieden311 wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 3:40 am
Hello Bhante, thank you for your answer. So it seems that a bhikkhu that gives pabbaja without permission from parents does an offense of Vinaya. Then I don't know if it would be bad for me also for requesting it if I know the rule. even if I am accepted...
One would have to live with the fact that one had obtained one's ordination from dodgy monks who think it's okay to cut corners. Who knows what other corners they may have cut?
Yes, that is true...
Dhammanando wrote:
Sat Dec 07, 2019 5:52 am

Ven. Raṭṭhapāla shows the proper way to go about it:


Oh yes, I often remember Raṭṭhapāla and I think I might have to do like him... But maybe it might not work for me because it would not be so dramatic (my dad lives in another country so he will not see me lying on the floor and starving)

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Bunks
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Re: Permission of parents in Sri Lanka ordination

Post by Bunks » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:28 pm

If the Lord Buddha listened to his father he would have stayed in the palace and not gone forth.

Be patient but stick to your guns. Your father will come around eventually. And if he doesn’t you main need to be strong enough to walk away.

🙏🙏🙏
Wisdom tells me I’m nothing.
Love tells me I’m everything.
And between the two my life flows.

Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

frieden311
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Joined: Sat Nov 30, 2019 6:39 pm

Re: Permission of parents in Sri Lanka ordination

Post by frieden311 » Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:57 pm

Bunks wrote:
Sun Dec 08, 2019 9:28 pm
If the Lord Buddha listened to his father he would have stayed in the palace and not gone forth.

And if he doesn’t you main need to be strong enough to walk away.
To be honest I am sure I can do that... I am only worried about Vinaya and being allowed to go forth...
I know I have to walk away because I know he will never accept it or just say "yes, go"
So basically I need him to walk away or give up on me and that would be the closest to his "permission" I can get

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