Do young arahants have to bow down to senior monks?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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retrofuturist
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Re: Do young arahants have to bow down to senior monks?

Post by retrofuturist » Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:37 am

Greetings,

In terms of seniority it's about the numbers of vassa (rains retreats)... not age.

As for how stages of enlightenment fit into the equation, I don't know... better ask a Vinaya expert that one.

Metta,
Paul. :)
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Re: Do young arahants have to bow down to senior monks?

Post by robertk » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:02 am

dhammapal wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 5:34 am
Do young arahants have to bow down to senior ordinary monks?
yes.

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Re: Do young arahants have to bow down to senior monks?

Post by SarathW » Mon Aug 12, 2019 6:08 am

I think this is one of the most important etiquettes lost in the modern age, especially in the West.
No respect for the seniority.
I think we have to apply this to this forum as well. :tongue:
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Re: Do young arahants have to bow down to senior monks?

Post by Bhikkhu_Jayasara » Mon Aug 12, 2019 12:28 pm

yes , monastic procedure and protocol has nothing to do with the attainment of the people following it.

another example would be , even if a young monastic became an arahant, they would still need wait until they have 10 vassa to ordain others.


quite frankly, I don't believe the arahant would go around telling other monastics, so no one would know regardless.
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Re: Do young arahants have to bow down to senior monks?

Post by sunnat » Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:57 pm

I read a story in the tipitaka a few decades ago so I can only remember bare outline.

Buddha had an encounter with an elder (brahmin?). The elder wanted Buddha to bow to him.

Buddha explained that they had been (eagle, vulture?) in a nest in another life where the elder had been laid as egg first but Buddha had broken out of the shell first and he asked who should be considered senior. The elder conceded that it was Buddha who was senior.

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Re: Do young arahants have to bow down to senior monks?

Post by Sabbe_Dhamma_Anatta » Sat Aug 17, 2019 6:52 pm

Do young arahants have to bow down to senior monks?
Yes.
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  • "It is an entirely and perfectly foolish idea" ~ MN22
  • The No-self doctrine is found only in the teaching of the Buddha.
  • No-self (anatta) means that there is no permanent, unchanging entity in anything animate or inanimate. ~ SN22.59

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Re: Do young arahants have to bow down to senior monks?

Post by confusedlayman » Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:51 pm

sunnat wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:57 pm
I read a story in the tipitaka a few decades ago so I can only remember bare outline.

Buddha had an encounter with an elder (brahmin?). The elder wanted Buddha to bow to him.

Buddha explained that they had been (eagle, vulture?) in a nest in another life where the elder had been laid as egg first but Buddha had broken out of the shell first and he asked who should be considered senior. The elder conceded that it was Buddha who was senior.
there is also another Sutta where buddha said if he bows down then the recipient head will explode.. is that true?
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
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Re: Do young arahants have to bow down to senior monks?

Post by dharmacorps » Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:45 pm

confusedlayman wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:51 pm

there is also another Sutta where buddha said if he bows down then the recipient head will explode.. is that true?
I've never heard of a head exploding, but I have seen the movie "Scanners", so I leave open the possibility. :thinking:

This might be an example of something your should ask yourself rather than others for an answer-- does someone's head exploding (or I believe the actual sutta says "head breaks into pieces") comport with your understanding of the dhamma or do you think it is a linguistic expression?

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Re: Do young arahants have to bow down to senior monks?

Post by confusedlayman » Tue Oct 22, 2019 9:03 pm

dharmacorps wrote:
Tue Oct 22, 2019 5:45 pm
confusedlayman wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:51 pm

there is also another Sutta where buddha said if he bows down then the recipient head will explode.. is that true?
I've never heard of a head exploding, but I have seen the movie "Scanners", so I leave open the possibility. :thinking:

This might be an example of something your should ask yourself rather than others for an answer-- does someone's head exploding (or I believe the actual sutta says "head breaks into pieces") comport with your understanding of the dhamma or do you think it is a linguistic expression?
what it means? im sure head dont burst into pieces.
non-agitation is highest peace
living unaffected by other cause and condition to suffering is true bliss
not associating with stupid people is immediate peace
- CL (confused layman)

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Re: Do young arahants have to bow down to senior monks?

Post by robertk » Wed Oct 23, 2019 6:21 am

confusedlayman wrote:
Mon Oct 21, 2019 9:51 pm
sunnat wrote:
Mon Aug 12, 2019 2:57 pm
I read a story in the tipitaka a few decades ago so I can only remember bare outline.

Buddha had an encounter with an elder (brahmin?). The elder wanted Buddha to bow to him.

Buddha explained that they had been (eagle, vulture?) in a nest in another life where the elder had been laid as egg first but Buddha had broken out of the shell first and he asked who should be considered senior. The elder conceded that it was Buddha who was senior.
there is also another Sutta where buddha said if he bows down then the recipient head will explode.. is that true?
For the "explode" there are actions that could lead to head splitting. e.g.

Then the Blessed One said to him, "Answer now, Aggivessana. This is not the time to be silent. When anyone doesn't answer when asked a legitimate question by the Tathāgata up to three times, his head splits into seven pieces right here."

Now on that occasion the spirit (yakkha) Vajirapāṇin [Thunderbolt-in-Hand], carrying an iron thunderbolt, was poised in the air above Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son, (thinking,) "If Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son doesn't answer when asked a legitimate question by the Blessed One up to three times, I will split his head into seven pieces right here."

The Blessed One saw the spirit Vajirapāṇin, as did Saccaka the Nigaṇṭha-son. So Saccaka — afraid, terrified, his hair standing on end — seeking shelter in the Blessed One, seeking a cave/asylum in the Blessed One, seeking refuge in the Blessed One — said to the Blessed One, "Let Master Gotama ask me. I will answer."

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