Majjhima 150 :What kind of ascetic or brahmin doesn’t deserve honor, respect, reverence, and veneration?

Discussion of ordination, the Vinaya and monastic life. How and where to ordain? Bhikkhuni ordination etc.
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SarathW
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Majjhima 150 :What kind of ascetic or brahmin doesn’t deserve honor, respect, reverence, and veneration?

Post by SarathW » Fri Mar 15, 2019 9:15 am

Not all monks deserve doesn’t deserve honor, respect, reverence, and veneration.
In Sri Lanka, we have this belief that we should venerate all monks irrespective of their Sila.
This is called the "Veneration the robe"
However, MN 150 says otherwise.

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“Householders, if wanderers who follow another path were to ask you: ‘What kind of ascetic or brahmin doesn’t deserve honor, respect, reverence, and veneration?’ You should answer them: ‘There are ascetics and brahmins who are not free of greed, hate, and delusion for sights known by the eye, who are not peaceful inside, and who conduct themselves badly among the good by way of body, speech, and mind. They don’t deserve honor, respect, reverence, and veneration. Why is that? Because we ourselves are not free of these things, so we do not see that they have any higher good conduct than us. That’s why they don’t deserve honor, respect, reverence, and veneration.

https://suttacentral.net/mn150/en/sujato
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

santa100
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Re: Majjhima 150 :What kind of ascetic or brahmin doesn’t deserve honor, respect, reverence, and veneration?

Post by santa100 » Fri Mar 15, 2019 2:43 pm

In Sri Lanka, we have this belief that we should venerate all monks irrespective of their Sila.
This is called the "Veneration the robe"
So does that mean for a serial killer or a serial rapist, all that he needs to do is putting on the orange robe and people would bow down and venerate him? Maybe it's time for folks to "venerate Sila/Samadhi/Panna" instead of "veneration the robe".

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Eko Care
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Re: Majjhima 150 :What kind of ascetic or brahmin doesn’t deserve honor, respect, reverence, and veneration?

Post by Eko Care » Mon Mar 18, 2019 10:37 am

How about this kind of monks?
On one festival day, the Buddha entered the city of Rajagaha for alms-food, accompanied by a number of bhikkhus. On their way, they met five hundred boys going to a pleasure garden. The boys were carrying some baskets of pan-cakes but they did not offer anything to the Buddha and his bhikkhus. But the Buddha said to his bhikkhus, "Bhikkhus, you shall eat those pan-cakes today; the owner is coming close behind us. We shall proceed only after taking some of these pan-cakes." After saying this, the Buddha and his bhikkhus rested under the shade of a tree. Just at that moment Thera Kassapa came along, and the boys seeing him paid obeisance to him and offered all their pan-cakes to the thera.

The thera then told the boys, "My teacher the Exalted One is resting underneath a tree over there accompanied by some bhikkhus; go and make an offering of your pan-cakes to him and the bhikkhus." The boys did as they were told. The Buddha accepted their offering of pan-cakes. Later, when the bhikkhus remarked that the boys were very partial to Thera Kassapa, the Buddha said to them, "Bhikkhus, all bhikkhus who are like my son Kassapa are liked by both devas and men. Such bhikkhus always receive ample offerings of the four requisites of bhikkhus."
https://www.tipitaka.net/tipitaka/dhp/v ... ?verse=217

dharmacorps
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Re: Majjhima 150 :What kind of ascetic or brahmin doesn’t deserve honor, respect, reverence, and veneration?

Post by dharmacorps » Mon Mar 18, 2019 4:43 pm

Since it is hard to know by looking at someone, or even by talking to them (unless over long periods of time), whether someone is worthy of veneration, what is wrong with showing respect to the fact they have in outward ways pursued a noble goal i.e. ordination? I see faults in others easily. Veneration of the robes makes a lot of sense to me.

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