Buddha's skin colour

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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pilgrim
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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by pilgrim » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:54 am

Ven Metteya Sakyaputta of Lumbini, the last name means a Sakyan son
smiling-metteyya.jpg
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thomaslaw
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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by thomaslaw » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:48 am

Coëmgenu wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 6:05 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:44 am
The Buddha in the Pali texts does not say he has 32 marks to monks.

Thomas
Its in DN?
The text does not state the Buddha has the 32 marks. The text only states about the great man's marks.

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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by thomaslaw » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:28 am

pilgrim wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:48 am
People claiming to be Sakyas still live along the southern edge of Nepal and in small communities in India, around Sankasia for eg. But I think intermarriage down thru the centuries have largely diluted physical features of their ethnicity.

Ven.Phra-Anil-Sakya.jpg
Phra Anil Shakya, an ethnic Sakyan of Nepali nationality living in Bangkok.
If Phra Anil Shakya is the same ethnic Sakyan of the Buddha, his ethnic language should be the same language of the Buddha. Good news indeed!

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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:44 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:44 am
The Buddha in the Pali texts does not say he has 32 marks to monks.

Thomas
https://suttacentral.net/en/dn14
there's a whole long discourse about the marks as well https://suttacentral.net/en/dn30
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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by Dhammarakkhito » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:47 am

race isn't skin color
"Just as the ocean has a single taste — that of salt — in the same way, this Dhamma-Vinaya has a single taste: that of release."
— Ud 5.5

https://www.facebook.com/noblebuddhadha ... 34/?type=3

http://seeingthroughthenet.net/
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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by thomaslaw » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:03 am

Sovatthika wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:44 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 8:44 am
The Buddha in the Pali texts does not say he has 32 marks to monks.

Thomas
https://suttacentral.net/en/dn14
there's a whole long discourse about the marks as well https://suttacentral.net/en/dn30
Thanks. None of the suttas states that the Buddha says he indeed has the marks!

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pilgrim
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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by pilgrim » Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:53 am

thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:03 am

Thanks. None of the suttas states that the Buddha says he indeed has the marks!
"These, brethren, are the Thirty-two Marks of the Superman, wherewith endowed he has two careers that lie open to him and none other: that of the Lord of the Wheel and that of Buddha Supreme"
~ Lakkhana sutta, DN30.
Seems clear enough

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Kusala
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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by Kusala » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:38 am

pilgrim wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:48 am
People claiming to be Sakyas still live along the southern edge of Nepal and in small communities in India, around Sankasia for eg. But I think intermarriage down thru the centuries have largely diluted physical features of their ethnicity.

Ven.Phra-Anil-Sakya.jpg

Image
Phra Anil Shakya, an ethnic Sakyan of Nepali nationality living in Bangkok.
How is that even possible? Prince Virudhaka of Kosala massacred the Shakyans...even though Kosala was a powerful kingdom back then, they still felt "inferior" to the Shakyans...

Anyway, this blue eyed Nepali Sadhu should offer a pretty convincing argument that the historical Buddha had blue eyes. I don't know about the forty teeth, though. :rofl:

Image
Image

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

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Mr Man
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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by Mr Man » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:45 am

Kusala wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:38 am

Anyway, this blue eyed Nepali Sadhu should offer a pretty convincing argument that the historical Buddha had blue eyes.
Hi Kusala

Can you please explain how a random picture of a "blue eyed Nepali Sadhu" offers a "pretty convincing argument that the historical Buddha had blue eyes"?

Can you really try and think about that and come back with an answer?

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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by thomaslaw » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:13 am

pilgrim wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:53 am
thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 7:03 am

Thanks. None of the suttas states that the Buddha says he indeed has the marks!
"These, brethren, are the Thirty-two Marks of the Superman, wherewith endowed he has two careers that lie open to him and none other: that of the Lord of the Wheel and that of Buddha Supreme"
~ Lakkhana sutta, DN30.
Seems clear enough
The Buddha does not say he is a Superman.

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Dhammanando
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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:27 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:13 am
The Buddha does not say he is a Superman.
Not in the Lakkhaṇasutta, but he does elsewhere.

https://suttacentral.net/en/an4.35
On retreat and offline May 22 - July 10.

„Sedem solitariam, cubitum solitarium
solitarius colens non segnis,
solitarius semet ipse domans
in sylva extrema delectatus sit.“

(Dhammapada 305. tr. Viggo Fausbøll. 1855)

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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by thomaslaw » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:24 pm

Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 12:27 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:13 am
The Buddha does not say he is a Superman.
Not in the Lakkhaṇasutta, but he does elsewhere.

https://suttacentral.net/en/an4.35
Thanks. But I am unable to see that the text records the Buddha says I am a Great man! The Buddha in the text does not say he is indeed a Great man. The text only states what is Great man between the conversation of the two persons, the brahmin and the Buddha.

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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by Dhammanando » Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:57 pm

thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:24 pm
But I am unable to see that the text records the Buddha says I am a Great man! The Buddha in the text does not say he is indeed a Great man. The text only states what is Great man between the conversation of the two persons, the brahmin and the Buddha.
It does more than that:

Vassakāra gives his view of the characteristics of a mahāpurisa.
The Buddha gives his view.
Vassakāra expresses approval of the Buddha's view and goes on to say that the Buddha possesses those characteristics.
The Buddha confirms that he possesses them.

Given what has preceded it, the Buddha's confirmation is tantamount to asserting his own mahāpurisa-ness.
On retreat and offline May 22 - July 10.

„Sedem solitariam, cubitum solitarium
solitarius colens non segnis,
solitarius semet ipse domans
in sylva extrema delectatus sit.“

(Dhammapada 305. tr. Viggo Fausbøll. 1855)

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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by dharmacorps » Fri Dec 01, 2017 5:33 pm

pilgrim wrote:
Thu Nov 30, 2017 11:05 pm
Modern people are so fearful of being perceived as Racist ( there, I mentioned the elephant in the room), that any mention of skin colour is whispered only with extreme sensitivity. But there is absolutely nothing wrong with being curious of how the founder of our religion looked like. Yes, he's Asian, and probably looked like many north Indians today. If anyone has difficulty picturing that, google Shah Rukh Khan. :tongue:
I agree with this statement about sensitivity but the question is what is the motivation for this obsession with what the Buddha looked like? There are several posts going on right now about it. Seems like an excessive interest. The important things about the Buddha was not his appearance.

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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by DNS » Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:33 pm

Mr Man wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:45 am
Kusala wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:38 am
Anyway, this blue eyed Nepali Sadhu should offer a pretty convincing argument that the historical Buddha had blue eyes.
Hi Kusala
Can you please explain how a random picture of a "blue eyed Nepali Sadhu" offers a "pretty convincing argument that the historical Buddha had blue eyes"?
Can you really try and think about that and come back with an answer?
I agree with Mr Man and am wondering why are you, Kusala, apparently fixated on this idea that the Buddha had blue eyes? It is a theme running through several of your posts when the topic of the Buddha's appearance comes up. You don't appear to be as concerned about the other so-called 32 marks, but you seem to be especially fond of the idea of blue eyes?

I would imagine his eyes were brown like any other typical Indian; afaik, blue is rather rare.

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Kusala
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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by Kusala » Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:29 pm

DNS wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:33 pm
Mr Man wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:45 am
Kusala wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 9:38 am
Anyway, this blue eyed Nepali Sadhu should offer a pretty convincing argument that the historical Buddha had blue eyes.
Hi Kusala
Can you please explain how a random picture of a "blue eyed Nepali Sadhu" offers a "pretty convincing argument that the historical Buddha had blue eyes"?
Can you really try and think about that and come back with an answer?
I agree with Mr Man and am wondering why are you, Kusala, apparently fixated on this idea that the Buddha had blue eyes? It is a theme running through several of your posts when the topic of the Buddha's appearance comes up. You don't appear to be as concerned about the other so-called 32 marks, but you seem to be especially fond of the idea of blue eyes?

I would imagine his eyes were brown like any other typical Indian; afaik, blue is rather rare.
Hi David, I have always been fascinated with Indian and Indo-European history. It's like how some people are fascinated with the ancient Israelites and what not, my fascination is with the ancient Aryans.

I agree that blue eyes are rare in India, but it's not as strange as many people think. I have seen quite a few high caste Indians with blue or green eyes, so it makes perfect sense that the historical Buddha, who belonged to the ruling elite would have blue eyes.
Image

"He, the Blessed One, is indeed the Noble Lord, the Perfectly Enlightened One;
He is impeccable in conduct and understanding, the Serene One, the Knower of the Worlds;
He trains perfectly those who wish to be trained; he is Teacher of gods and men; he is Awake and Holy. "

--------------------------------------------
"The Dhamma is well-expounded by the Blessed One,
Apparent here and now, timeless, encouraging investigation,
Leading to liberation, to be experienced individually by the wise. "

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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by SarathW » Sat Dec 02, 2017 12:50 am

>Between Gayā and the Place of Enlightenment the Ājīvaka Upaka saw me on the road and said: ‘Friend, your faculties are clear, the colour of your skin is pure and bright. >

https://suttacentral.net/en/mn26
“As the lamp consumes oil, the path realises Nibbana”

dharmacorps
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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by dharmacorps » Sat Dec 02, 2017 2:03 am

I suggest reading the Vasettha Sutta. That will tell you all you need to know about the relevance of race, color or physical markings.

To make it very simple, animals can get valid information about each other based on their physical characteristics; this process does not work with people. You can't discern anything about people from looking at them because their kamma is what matters. This is the Buddha teaching that preoccupation with race, racism itself, is not only unworkable from a spiritual standpoint, but a completely invalid world view he rejected. Put it in the same heap as nihilism, the caste system, and acausality.

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Mr Man
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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by Mr Man » Sat Dec 02, 2017 11:11 am

Kusala wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 10:29 pm
I have seen quite a few high caste Indians with blue or green eyes, so it makes perfect sense that the historical Buddha, who belonged to the ruling elite would have blue eyes.
Hi Kusala
Really try and think about this. What you have said does not make sense at all.

What you have said is -

Kusala has seen "quite a few high caste Indians with blue or green eyes" and because of that "it makes perfect sense that the historical Buddha, who belonged to the ruling elite would have blue eyes."

How does that make sense?

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Re: Buddha's skin colour

Post by thomaslaw » Sun Dec 03, 2017 1:56 am

:oops:
Dhammanando wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:57 pm
thomaslaw wrote:
Fri Dec 01, 2017 4:24 pm
But I am unable to see that the text records the Buddha says I am a Great man! The Buddha in the text does not say he is indeed a Great man. The text only states what is Great man between the conversation of the two persons, the brahmin and the Buddha.
It does more than that:

Vassakāra gives his view of the characteristics of a mahāpurisa.
The Buddha gives his view.
Vassakāra expresses approval of the Buddha's view and goes on to say that the Buddha possesses those characteristics.
The Buddha confirms that he possesses them.

Given what has preceded it, the Buddha's confirmation is tantamount to asserting his own mahāpurisa-ness.
The text does not state the 32 marks of the mahapurisa. It says the mahapurisa with great wisdom.

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