DN 33 differentiating vitakka and sankappo, B. Sujato incoherent, can't do metta in first jhana by 'placing the mind'

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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frank k
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DN 33 differentiating vitakka and sankappo, B. Sujato incoherent, can't do metta in first jhana by 'placing the mind'

Post by frank k » Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:18 pm

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... ting.html

excerpt:
DN 33: B. Sujato incoherence in differentiating vitakka (thinking) and sankappo (resolve/intention)
This article is going to focus on two problems. Both are illustrated by the same passage in DN 33.

1. First we'll look at B.Sujato's lack of differentiation between vitakka and sankappo.
2. Then we'll look at the importance of consistency of fundamental meaning in terms for meditation experience.

from B. Sujato translation of DN 33
https://suttacentral.net/dn33/en/sujato#dn33:1.9.39
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frank k
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Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: DN 33 differentiating vitakka and sankappo, B. Sujato incoherent, can't do metta in first jhana by 'placing the mind

Post by frank k » Sat Jan 18, 2020 7:00 pm

and an update to the article:

... (later down in the same section of threes) ...
Three kinds of immersion. Tayo samādhī— Immersion with placing the mind and keeping it connected. Immersion without placing the mind, but just keeping it connected. Immersion without placing the mind or keeping it connected.
savitakkasavicāro samādhi, avitakkavicāramatto samādhi, avitakkaavicāro samādhi. (50)
quick comment:
First sankappo and vitakka in most of Sujato's translations were both 'thinking', then in this passage, he's forced to differentiate those two terms, and then later on in the same passage, vitakka is now 'placing the mind'. THINK about this. How is the disciple going to hear this sutta (in pali) and arrive at all of these contradictory understandings of vitakka? The only way for this to work, is for Ajahn Brahm, Sujato, and Buddhaghosa to get in a time travel machine and go back in time, and inform the bhikkhus they have to be careful not to think 'vitakka' means the same thing everywhere like a sane person would assume.
see this article, a blast from the past:

Ajahn Brahm and the time machine: DN 21 B. Sujato's erroneous translation of vitakka & vicara explained.

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... ating.html
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www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

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DooDoot
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Re: DN 33 differentiating vitakka and sankappo, B. Sujato incoherent, can't do metta in first jhana by 'placing the mind

Post by DooDoot » Sun Jan 19, 2020 2:58 am

frank k wrote:
Sat Jan 18, 2020 6:18 pm
from B. Sujato translation of DN 33
https://suttacentral.net/dn33/en/sujato#dn33:1.9.39
Looks OK to me. Where as the below don't look OK:
FK wrote:In first jhana, there are still 3 kusala sankappa/intentions, and 3 kusala vitakka (thoughts). In second jhana, those 3 kusala sankappa and vitakka drop out, and are replaced by 3 kusala sañña: perceptions
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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