the word 'Dhamma' needs to be untranslated, here's why, and it's funny

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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frank k
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the word 'Dhamma' needs to be untranslated, here's why, and it's funny

Post by frank k » Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:33 pm

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... o-be.html
excerpt:
the word 'Dhamma' needs to be untranslated, here's why, and it's funny
In AN 10, vaggas 12-15,


The noble eightfold path, + 2 more factors right freedom and right knowledge, are referred to as "10 dharmas" several times in these 30 suttas.

Now the funny thing is, B. Sujato translates 'dhamma' 3 different ways in these 4 vaggas, all referring to those same 10 factors, within a span of a few suttas from each other.

(blog post contains pali + english sutta citations in table format)

discussion topic: agree or disagree? if you agree, give feedback to the translators and let them know how you feel.
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DooDoot
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Re: the word 'Dhamma' needs to be untranslated, here's why, and it's funny

Post by DooDoot » Sat Oct 05, 2019 4:27 am

frank k wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:33 pm
Now the funny thing is, B. Sujato translates 'dhamma' 3 different ways in these 4 vaggas, all referring to those same 10 factors, within a span of a few suttas from each other.
Its not funny at all. The examples you chose appears OK to me.
“Mendicants, there are ten qualities :thumbsup: of an adept.
“Dasayime, bhikkhave, asekhiyā dhammā.

What ten?
Katame dasa?

An adept's right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right immersion, right knowledge, and right freedom.

Asekhā sammādiṭṭhi, asekho sammāsaṅkappo, asekhā sammāvācā, asekho sammākammanto, asekho sammāājīvo, asekho sammāvāyāmo, asekhā sammāsati, asekho sammāsamādhi, asekhaṃ sammāñāṇaṃ, asekhā sammāvimutti—

https://suttacentral.net/an10.112/en/sujato
“Mendicants, you should know bad principles :thumbsup: with bad results.
“Adhammo ca, bhikkhave, veditabbo anattho ca;

And you should know good principles with good results.
dhammo ca veditabbo attho ca.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.113/en/sujato
When the teaching :thumbsup: is well explained,
Ye ca kho sammadakkhāte,

those who practice accordingly
dhamme dhammānuvattino;

are the ones who will cross over
Te janā pāramessanti,

Death’s domain so hard to pass.
maccudheyyaṃ suduttaraṃ.

Rid of dark qualities :thumbsup: ,
Kaṇhaṃ dhammaṃ vippahāya,

https://suttacentral.net/an10.118/en/sujato
In the same way right view is the forerunner and precursor of skillful qualities :thumbsup: .
Evamevaṃ kho, bhikkhave, kusalānaṃ dhammānaṃ etaṃ pubbaṅgamaṃ etaṃ pubbanimittaṃ, yadidaṃ—sammādiṭṭhi.

https://suttacentral.net/an10.121/en/sujato
“Mendicants, these ten things :thumbsup: , when developed and cultivated, lead to the ending of defilements.
“Dasayime, bhikkhave, dhammā bhāvitā bahulīkatā āsavānaṃ khayāya saṃvattanti.

What ten?
Katame dasa?

Right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right immersion, right knowledge, and right freedom.

Sammādiṭṭhi, sammāsaṅkappo, sammāvācā, sammākammanto, sammāājīvo, sammāvāyāmo, sammāsati, sammāsamādhi, sammāñāṇaṃ, sammāvimutti—

https://suttacentral.net/an10.122/en/sujato
“Mendicants, these ten things :thumbsup: are not purified and cleansed apart from the Holy One’s training.
“Dasayime, bhikkhave, dhammā parisuddhā pariyodātā, nāññatra sugatavinayā.

What ten?
Katame dasa?

Right view, right thought, right speech, right action, right livelihood, right effort, right mindfulness, right immersion, right knowledge, and right freedom.

Sammādiṭṭhi, sammāsaṅkappo, sammāvācā, sammākammanto, sammāājīvo, sammāvāyāmo, sammāsati, sammāsamādhi, sammāñāṇaṃ, sammāvimutti—'

https://suttacentral.net/an10.123/en/sujato
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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DooDoot
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Re: the word 'Dhamma' needs to be untranslated, here's why, and it's funny

Post by DooDoot » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:30 am

frank k wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:33 pm
discussion topic: agree or disagree? if you agree, give feedback to the translators and let them know how you feel.
Why don't we choose some suttas that are debatable or discussable, such as:
1. “Mendicants, take a certain person who rebuts and quashes unprincipled :shrug: [incorrect; unrealistic; discordant with Truth :thumbsup: ] statements with unprincipled statements. This delights an unprincipled :thumbsup: assembly,

“Idha, bhikkhave, ekacco adhammikena vādena adhammikaṃ vādaṃ abhiniggaṇhāti abhinippīḷeti, tena ca adhammikaṃ parisaṃ rañjeti.

who make a dreadful racket:

Tena sā adhammikā parisā uccāsaddamahāsaddā hoti:

‘He’s a true philosopher! He’s a true philosopher!’

‘paṇḍito vata bho, paṇḍito vata bho’ti.

2. Another person rebuts and quashes principled :shrug: [correct; realistic; according to Truth :thumbsup: ] statements with unprincipled statements. This delights an unprincipled assembly,

Idha pana, bhikkhave, ekacco adhammikena vādena dhammikaṃ vādaṃ abhiniggaṇhāti abhinippīḷeti, tena ca adhammikaṃ parisaṃ rañjeti.

who make a dreadful racket:

Tena sā adhammikā parisā uccāsaddamahāsaddā hoti:

‘He’s a true philosopher! He’s a true philosopher!’

‘paṇḍito vata bho, paṇḍito vata bho’ti.

3. Another person rebuts and quashes principled and unprincipled statements with unprincipled statements. This delights an unprincipled assembly...

Mendicants, you should know bad principles :thumbsup: and good principles :thumbsup: .

Adhammo ca, bhikkhave, veditabbo dhammo ca;

And you should know bad results and good results.

anattho ca veditabbo attho ca.

So what are bad principles? What are good principles? What are bad results? And what are good results?

Katamo ca, bhikkhave, adhammo, katamo ca dhammo, katamo ca anattho, katamo ca attho?

Wrong view is a bad principle.

Micchādiṭṭhi,

bhikkhave, adhammo;

Right view is a good principle.

sammādiṭṭhi dhammo;

And the many bad, unskillful qualities produced by wrong view are bad results.

ye ca micchādiṭṭhipaccayā aneke pāpakā akusalā dhammā sambhavanti, ayaṃ anattho;

And the many skillful qualities fully developed because of right view are good results.

sammādiṭṭhipaccayā ca aneke kusalā dhammā bhāvanāpāripūriṃ gacchanti, ayaṃ attho.

Wrong thought is a bad principle.

Micchāsaṅkappo, bhikkhave, adhammo;

Right thought is a good principle. …

sammāsaṅkappo dhammo …

https://suttacentral.net/an10.116/en/sujato
The above said, my suggestions bracketed in blue color may not be accurate, given the sutta highlights: 'This delights an unprincipled assembly who make a dreadful racket". I must go and will read it more thoroughly, later. :smile:
noun
plural noun: principles

1. a fundamental truth or proposition that serves as the foundation for a system of belief or behaviour or for a chain of reasoning.

2. a general scientific theorem or law that has numerous special applications across a wide field; such as a natural law forming the basis for the construction or working of a machine. "these machines all operate on the same general principle"

3. a fundamental source or basis of something.; such as "the first principle of all things was water"

a fundamental quality determining the nature of something. "the combination of male and female principles"

CHEMISTRY
an active or characteristic constituent of a substance, obtained by simple analysis or separation.
"the active principle of Spanish fly"
There is always an official executioner. If you try to take his place, It is like trying to be a master carpenter and cutting wood. If you try to cut wood like a master carpenter, you will only hurt your hand.

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https://soundcloud.com/doodoot/anapanasati

binocular
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Re: the word 'Dhamma' needs to be untranslated, here's why, and it's funny

Post by binocular » Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:58 am

frank k wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:33 pm
discussion topic: agree or disagree?
Even a brief overview of translatology gives one the scope of the problems faced by any translator, which, in turn, can make one pause before criticizing them ...

frank k
Posts: 573
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: the word 'Dhamma' needs to be untranslated, here's why, and it's funny

Post by frank k » Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:37 pm

binocular wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 5:58 am
frank k wrote:
Fri Oct 04, 2019 1:33 pm
discussion topic: agree or disagree?
Even a brief overview of translatology gives one the scope of the problems faced by any translator, which, in turn, can make one pause before criticizing them ...
And where did I criticize him in the article?
I'm well aware of the reasons and problems they face and why they made that choice in translating 'dhamma'.
I'm just pointing out there's a much better choice IMO.
People are never going to improve if they treat constructive feedback as personal criticism.
There are other translation choices for other words he makes that are wrong, and those I criticize strongly.
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binocular
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Re: the word 'Dhamma' needs to be untranslated, here's why, and it's funny

Post by binocular » Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:18 pm

frank k wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:37 pm
I'm well aware of the reasons and problems they face and why they made that choice in translating 'dhamma'.
I'm just pointing out there's a much better choice IMO.
It depends with what audience in mind the translator is translating.

If, for instance, he has some general English-speaking audience in mind who doesn't have much, or any knowledge of Buddhism, then the translator will probably choose ordinary English terms; disregarding that there are in fact Pali loan-words in the English dictionary. For such an audience, it's easier to go with an all-English vocabulary.
If he were translating the same text with experienced Buddhists in mind as readers, he would probably render it quite differently.
People are never going to improve if they treat constructive feedback as personal criticism.
I'm saying you're too quick to shoot. There is often a practical explanation for why translators translate the way they do.
:guns:

frank k
Posts: 573
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: the word 'Dhamma' needs to be untranslated, here's why, and it's funny

Post by frank k » Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:07 pm

He already uses the borrowed words, Buddha, Dhamma, in his translations.
So there's no excuse not to continue to use 'dhamma' in places such as the one in the OP where it's clearly and unequivocally Dharma teachings of the Buddha.
binocular wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 12:18 pm
frank k wrote:
Sat Oct 05, 2019 2:37 pm
I'm well aware of the reasons and problems they face and why they made that choice in translating 'dhamma'.
I'm just pointing out there's a much better choice IMO.
It depends with what audience in mind the translator is translating.

If, for instance, he has some general English-speaking audience in mind who doesn't have much, or any knowledge of Buddhism, then the translator will probably choose ordinary English terms; disregarding that there are in fact Pali loan-words in the English dictionary. For such an audience, it's easier to go with an all-English vocabulary.
If he were translating the same text with experienced Buddhists in mind as readers, he would probably render it quite differently.
People are never going to improve if they treat constructive feedback as personal criticism.
I'm saying you're too quick to shoot. There is often a practical explanation for why translators translate the way they do.
:guns:
www.lucid24.org/sted : ☸Lucid24.org🐘 STED definitions
www.audtip.org/audtip: 🎙️🔊Audio Tales in Pāli: ☸Dharma and Vinaya in many languages

binocular
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Re: the word 'Dhamma' needs to be untranslated, here's why, and it's funny

Post by binocular » Wed Oct 09, 2019 4:38 pm

frank k wrote:
Mon Oct 07, 2019 3:07 pm
He already uses the borrowed words, Buddha, Dhamma, in his translations.
So there's no excuse not to continue to use 'dhamma' in places such as the one in the OP where it's clearly and unequivocally Dharma teachings of the Buddha.
Take this up with him, then, I guess.

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