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solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:35 pm
by frank k
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... hana.html
excerpt:
This article will have 2 or 3 installments.
Here is the first.


Who killed kāya in 3rd jhāna, and Why?
Before we can understand what kāya means in 3rd jhana, first we have to dissect 4th jhāna's standard formula, which provides the clues we're looking for.
...

area for discussion:
Error checking, confirming, or disputing the thesis from EBT (early Buddhist text) perspective.
Obviously if one takes Abhidhamma pitaka as overriding EBT in authority, then that would invalidate the thesis. This is why the article is posted on 'early buddhism' sub forum.

Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:10 pm
by JamesTheGiant
That's a super title, clever and interesting!
:thumbsup: :anjali:

Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:24 pm
by DooDoot
frank k wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:35 pm
Who killed kāya in 3rd jhāna, and Why?
Who killed FrankK in 3rd jhāna, and Why? This replay will have 2 or 3 installments.

:popcorn:

Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:28 pm
by DooDoot
Ist installment: :popcorn:
frank k wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:35 pm
Before we can understand what kāya means in 3rd jhana....
AN 8.66:
Mendicants, there are these eight liberations.

Aṭṭhime, bhikkhave, vimokkhā.

Going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, they enter and remain in the dimension of infinite space.

Sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā ‘ananto ākāso’ti ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharati.

This is the fourth liberation.

Ayaṃ catuttho vimokkho. (4)

Going totally beyond the dimension of infinite space, aware that ‘consciousness is infinite’, they enter and remain in the dimension of infinite consciousness.

Sabbaso ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ samatikkamma ‘anantaṃ viññāṇan’ti viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharati.

This is the fifth liberation.

Ayaṃ pañcamo vimokkho. (5)

Going totally beyond the dimension of infinite consciousness, aware that ‘there is nothing at all’, they enter and remain in the dimension of nothingness.

Sabbaso viññāṇañcāyatanaṃ samatikkamma ‘natthi kiñcī’ti ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharati.

This is the sixth liberation.

Ayaṃ chaṭṭho vimokkho. (6)

Going totally beyond the dimension of nothingness, they enter and remain in the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception.

Sabbaso ākiñcaññāyatanaṃ samatikkamma nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ
upasampajja viharati.

This is the seventh liberation.

Ayaṃ sattamo vimokkho. (7)

Going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, they enter and remain in the cessation of perception and feeling.

Sabbaso nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ samatikkamma saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ upasampajja viharati.

This is the eighth liberation.

Ayaṃ aṭṭhamo vimokkho.

https://suttacentral.net/an8.66/en/sujato

Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:40 pm
by DooDoot
2nd installment: :popcorn:
frank k wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:35 pm
Before we can understand what kāya means in 3rd jhana....
AN 4.87
And how is a person a pink lotus ascetic?

Kathañca, bhikkhave, puggalo samaṇapadumo hoti?

It’s when a mendicant realizes the undefiled freedom of heart and freedom by wisdom in this very life. … And they have direct meditative experience of the eight liberations.

Idha, bhikkhave, bhikkhu āsavānaṃ khayā anāsavaṃ cetovimuttiṃ paññāvimuttiṃ diṭṭheva dhamme sayaṃ abhiññā sacchikatvā upasampajja viharati, aṭṭha ca vimokkhe kāyena phusitvā viharati.

That’s how a person is a pink lotus ascetic.

Evaṃ kho, bhikkhave, puggalo samaṇapadumo hoti.
Bhikkhu Bodhi below about "contacting/touching" ("phusitvā") immaterial spheres "with the body" ("kayena"): :popcorn:

Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:49 pm
by DooDoot
3rd installment: :popcorn:
frank k wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:35 pm
Before we can understand what kāya means in 3rd jhana....
AN 6.46, referring to "The Deathless Element".
Because it’s incredibly rare to find individuals in the world who have direct meditative experience of the deathless.

Acchariyā hete, āvuso, puggalā dullabhā lokasmiṃ, ye amataṃ dhātuṃ kāyena phusitvā viharanti.

https://suttacentral.net/an6.46/en/sujato
Thus, friends, you should train yourselves: 'Being Dhamma-devotee monks, we will speak in praise of jhana monks.' That's how you should train yourselves. Why is that? Because these are amazing people, hard to find in the world, i.e., those who dwell touching the deathless element with the body.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
:smile:

Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Posted: Sat Sep 14, 2019 9:56 pm
by DooDoot
4th hinstallment: :popcorn: Encore! :woohoo:
frank k wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:35 pm
Before we can understand what kāya means in 3rd jhana....
AN 9.43:
“Reverend, they speak of a person called ‘personal [body] witness’.

“‘Kāyasakkhī, kāyasakkhī’ti, āvuso, vuccati.

What is the personal witness that the Buddha spoke of?”

Kittāvatā nu kho, āvuso, kāyasakkhī vutto bhagavatā”ti?

“First, take a mendicant who, quite secluded from sensual pleasures … enters and remains in the first absorption.

Idhāvuso, bhikkhu vivicceva kāmehi … pe … paṭhamaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.

They meditate directly experiencing that dimension in every way.

Yathā yathā ca tadāyatanaṃ tathā tathā naṃ kāyena phusitvā viharati.

To this extent the Buddha spoke of the personal witness in a qualified sense.

Ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, kāyasakkhī vutto bhagavatā pariyāyena. (1)

Furthermore, take a mendicant who, as the placing of the mind and keeping it connected are stilled, enters and remains in the second absorption

Puna caparaṃ, āvuso, bhikkhu vitakkavicārānaṃ vūpasamā … pe … dutiyaṃ jhānaṃ …

third absorption

tatiyaṃ jhānaṃ …

fourth absorption.

catutthaṃ jhānaṃ upasampajja viharati.

They meditate directly experiencing that dimension in every way.

Yathā yathā ca tadāyatanaṃ tathā tathā naṃ kāyena phusitvā viharati.

To this extent the Buddha spoke of the personal witness in a qualified sense.

Ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, kāyasakkhī vutto bhagavatā pariyāyena. (2–4.)

Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond perceptions of form, with the ending of perceptions of impingement, not focusing on perceptions of diversity, aware that ‘space is infinite’, enters and remains in the dimension of infinite space.

Puna caparaṃ, āvuso, bhikkhu sabbaso rūpasaññānaṃ samatikkamā paṭighasaññānaṃ atthaṅgamā nānattasaññānaṃ amanasikārā ‘ananto ākāso’ti ākāsānañcāyatanaṃ upasampajja viharati.

They meditate directly experiencing that dimension in every way.

Yathā yathā ca tadāyatanaṃ tathā tathā naṃ kāyena phusitvā viharati.

To this extent the Buddha spoke of the personal witness in a qualified sense. Furthermore, take a mendicant who enters and remains in the dimension of infinite consciousness … the dimension of nothingness … the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception

Ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, kāyasakkhī vutto bhagavatā pariyāyena … pe …. (5–8.)

Furthermore, take a mendicant who, going totally beyond the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, enters and remains in the cessation of perception and feeling. And, having seen with wisdom, their defilements come to an end.

Puna caparaṃ, āvuso, bhikkhu sabbaso nevasaññānāsaññāyatanaṃ samatikkamma saññāvedayitanirodhaṃ upasampajja viharati, paññāya cassa disvā āsavā parikkhīṇā honti.

They meditate directly experiencing that dimension in every way.

Yathā yathā ca tadāyatanaṃ tathā tathā naṃ kāyena phusitvā viharati.

To this extent the Buddha spoke of the personal witness in a definitive sense.”

Ettāvatāpi kho, āvuso, kāyasakkhī vutto bhagavatā nippariyāyenā”ti. (9)

https://suttacentral.net/an9.43/en/sujato

Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 4:52 am
by ToVincent
frank k wrote:
Sat Sep 14, 2019 5:35 pm
Who killed kāya in 3rd jhāna, and Why?
This satta's breathing in is just death & life.

This satta's breathing out is just death & life.
.

Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:02 pm
by confusedlayman
do you feel physical body in 3rd jhana?

Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:22 pm
by frank k
Doodoot has posted some sutta excerpts, ones that B. Sujato uses to justify his translation of third jhana's "sukham ca kayena".
Now the correct EBT translation, such as B. Bodhi, B. Thanissaro, Rupert Gethin (president of pali text society), all have something very similar to my rendering as: pleasure experienced with the [physical] body.

B. Sujato has "he personally experiences."

It's very easy to show where B. Sujato is wrong. The sutta passages quoted, you'll notice they all have to do with arupa samadhis, which ARE NOT 4 jhanas.

The word 'kāya', just like the word 'body' in English, is context sensitive, and we know from context when 'body' is meant metaphorically and not as the physical body of the self. In the four jhanas context, the translator must use the same translation of kaya as he does in that 4 jhana context. The four jhanas are not arupa, so you don't use the metaphorical sense of kaya in the 4 jhana context. Very straightforward.

More on this later in the blog article.

Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:28 pm
by frank k
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:02 pm
do you feel physical body in 3rd jhana?
Yes. The same way that pleasure chemicals flood your brain and body when you have a sexual orgasm, first and second jhana physical pleasure feels like that. In the four jhanas, one has spatial awareness and body awareness. You're able to feel leg pain, you can hear sounds and feel mosquito bites. If you've slipped into a samadhi where you can not locate your body in space, can't hear sounds, then you're no longer in the four jhanas. You're in an arupa samadhi.

See AN 5.28, which contains the famous four jhana similes, and its commentary:
AN 5.28, DN 2, MN 39, jhāna simile commentary – physical!
AN-a 5, 1. paṭhamapaṇṇāsakaṃ, 3. pañcaṅgikavaggo, 8. pañcaṅgikasuttavaṇṇanā, para. 1 ⇒
(geoff shatz trans.)
imameva kāyan-ti imaṃ karajakāyaṃ.
“This very body:” this body born of action [i.e. born of kamma].
Abhisandetī-ti temeti sneheti,
“He drenches:” he moistens,
sabbattha pavatta-pīti-sukhaṃ karoti.
he extends joy and pleasure everywhere.
Parisandetī-ti samantato sandeti.
“Steeps:” to flow all over.
Paripūretī-ti vāyunā bhastaṃ viya pūreti.
“Fills:” like filling a bellows with air.
Parippharatī-ti samantato phusati.
“Permeates:” to touch all over.
sabbāvato kāyassāti assa bhikkhuno
“His whole body:” in this monk’s body,
sabbakoṭṭhāsavato kāyassa kiñci upādinnakasantatipavattiṭṭhāne
with all its parts, in the place where acquired [material] continuity occurs there is not even the smallest part consisting of
Chavi-maṃsa-lohit-ānugataṃ
skin, flesh, and blood

aṇumattampi ṭhānaṃ paṭhamaj-jhāna-sukhena a-phuṭaṃ nāma na hoti.
that is not-permeated with the pleasure of the first-jhāna.

Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:17 pm
by Volo
frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:22 pm
It's very easy to show where B. Sujato is wrong. The sutta passages quoted, you'll notice they all have to do with arupa samadhis, which ARE NOT 4 jhanas.

The word 'kāya', just like the word 'body' in English, is context sensitive, and we know from context when 'body' is meant metaphorically and not as the physical body of the self. In the four jhanas context, the translator must use the same translation of kaya as he does in that 4 jhana context. The four jhanas are not arupa, so you don't use the metaphorical sense of kaya in the 4 jhana context. Very straightforward.
In the quotes DooDoot provided the Buddha is speaking (in particular) about touching with the "kāya" the eight emancipations. So, you are interpreting kāya for some of them as physical body, while the others you take "metaphorically". Quite inconsistent....

Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:58 pm
by frank k
Volo wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:17 pm
frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:22 pm
It's very easy to show where B. Sujato is wrong. The sutta passages quoted, you'll notice they all have to do with arupa samadhis, which ARE NOT 4 jhanas.

The word 'kāya', just like the word 'body' in English, is context sensitive, and we know from context when 'body' is meant metaphorically and not as the physical body of the self. In the four jhanas context, the translator must use the same translation of kaya as he does in that 4 jhana context. The four jhanas are not arupa, so you don't use the metaphorical sense of kaya in the 4 jhana context. Very straightforward.
In the quotes DooDoot provided the Buddha is speaking (in particular) about touching with the "kāya" the eight emancipations. So, you are interpreting kāya for some of them as physical body, while the others you take "metaphorically". Quite inconsistent....
No, that's not what I'm saying. For that context, where 9 samadhis are grouped together and referred to by 'kaya', you could justifiably claim kaya has a metaphorical meaning WHEN GROUPED WITH THOSE 9 SAMADHIS.

Now show me a passage where that same "touching with the kaya" is applied ONLY TO THE FOUR JHANAS, and then you have a case.

Just as the Buddha described all 9 samadhis as sukha in one sutta, and someone rightfully asked, "but how can you say there is sukha in teh 9th samadhi when there is cessation of perception of feeling?" and he replied saying sukha was metaphorical for that attainment. So because sukha is metaphorical there, do you then go back and retrofit the lower 8 samadhis with the metaphorical sukha? NO! Different context. Sukha is still sukha vedana and sukha indriya for the 4 jhanas, regardless of how it's understood in the 9th attainment.

If you guys don't understand this point, and I suspect many people don't, you really need to brush up on logic and critical thinking because you're going to have a lot of misunderstandings about the EBT.

Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:59 pm
by frank k

Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Posted: Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:40 pm
by Volo
frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:58 pm
If you guys don't understand this point, and I suspect many people don't, you really need to brush up on logic and critical thinking because you're going to have a lot of misunderstandings about the EBT.
The problem is that you think you have the authority to decide when kāya is used metaphorically, and when referring to physical body. The point of the above quotes is to show that kāya quite often doesn't refer to physical body, even when talking about rūpa jhānas. There are many more examples of "non-physical-body" usages of kāya in PED and Critical Pali dictionary. But although it's unambiguously used NOT for the physical body when talking about 3rd jhāna in particular, you keep insisting that in a 3rd jhāna stock phrase it refers only to the physical body and nothing else. So, who need to brush up on logic and critical thinking?