solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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DooDoot
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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by DooDoot »

frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:58 pm
No, that's not what I'm saying. For that context, where 9 samadhis are grouped together and referred to by 'kaya', you could justifiably claim kaya has a metaphorical meaning WHEN GROUPED WITH THOSE 9 SAMADHIS.
"Kaya" when not meaning "physical body" is never "metaphorical". "Kaya" literally means "group" or "collection".
frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:58 pm
Now show me a passage where that same "touching with the kaya" is applied ONLY TO THE FOUR JHANAS, and then you have a case.
The above question is irrelevant. I think the question should be asked: "Why is kaya mentioned in the 3rd jhana?" The possible answer to this question is the 3rd jhana is deemed as somewhat special for whatever reason, as follows: "the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’". Therefore, the question should be asked: "Why does the stock 4 jhana description include the phrase: noble ones declare"? :shrug:
frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:58 pm
Just as the Buddha described all 9 samadhis as sukha in one sutta... he replied saying sukha was metaphorical for that attainment.
The Buddha and Sariputta never said "sukha" was "metaphorical" in AN 9.34.
frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:22 pm
B. Bodhi, B. Thanissaro, Rupert Gethin (president of pali text society), all have something very similar to my rendering as: pleasure experienced with the [physical] body.
Hello Frank. I think you probably should substantiate the above comment with some quotes from B. Bodhi & Rupert Gethin. I have read B. Thanissaro say "touching with the body" has a "somatic" aspect but the suttas I posted show B. Thanissaro's ideas are very questionable here (because the suttas I posted say the immaterial spheres are "touched with the body").

Also, in B. Thanissaro's footnote, below, he says the PTS translation is "personal experience". I pointed out before this is how I.B. Horner translated the phrase. Therefore, if Rupert Gethin's ideas are as you claim, they really are merely his personal ideas rather than a view that represents the PTS as a whole.
Thanissaro wrote:2. Numerical Discourses of the Buddha translates this phrase as "[those] who have personal experience of the deathless element." However, AN 9.43 and 44 make a distinction between touching a meditative dimension with the body and knowing it with discernment. In both cases, the experience is direct and personal, and in both it leads to the ending of the mental effluents. Thus, "touching with the body" seems to have a more precise meaning than simple personal experience. It could mean that there is a somatic aspect to the experience or that the awareness of the deathless occupies the same fullness of awareness that had been occupied by the body.

https://www.accesstoinsight.org/tipitak ... .than.html
I think, so far, you are being thoroughly defeated :strawman: in this debate. You seem to be relying on "guru worship" to support your personal views rather than relying on the suttas :reading: .
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:02 pm
do you feel physical body in 3rd jhana?
Unlikely. The sutta say the mind experiences one-pointedness & happiness. If the mind experienced the physical body, how could it be one-pointed? :shrug:
frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:28 pm
The same way that pleasure chemicals flood your brain and body when you have a sexual orgasm, first and second jhana physical pleasure feels like that.
Jhana is serene and can last for many hours. I doubt it can be compared at all to sexual orgasm. About the body immediately preceding jhana, the suttas say:
Tireless energy was aroused in me and unremitting mindfulness was established, my body was tranquil and untroubled (asāraddha; undisturbed; impassible; unaroused), my mind concentrated and unified.

https://suttacentral.net/mn19/en/bodhi
The body being untroubled (Bodhi), undisturbed (Sujato), impassible ('incapable of suffering or feeling pain'; Horner) or unaroused (Thanissaro) does not sound like sexual orgasm. :smile:
Concise Pali English Dictionary
asāraddha
adjective
not excited; cool.

PTS Pali English Dictionary
asāraddha
adjective
not excited, cool AN.i.148 = Iti.119 (passaddho kāyo a.; variant reading assāraddha).

a + sāraddha

https://suttacentral.net/define/asāraddha
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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by frank k »

AN 9.34 is not the only place sukha is metaphorically describing sanna vedayita nirodha.
8 vimokkhas are not 4 jhanas, and 4 jhanas are not literally nirvana. So the question is completely relevant because you have to justify the usage of 'touching the body' to fit the context.

Hello Doo doot. I already gave you a direct link to an earlier thread of yours to passages of jhana quoted by B. Bodhi and Rupert Gethin. All it would have taken was 2 seconds for you to click on the hyperlink, and then click on one more hyperlink in the table of contents to jump directly to his quoted passage. If you didn't read it then, why should we believe you're going to read it now? How much more convenient do I need to make it for you? You want me to buy a plane ticket to your house, and then spend 2 seconds to click those links for you?

The relevant point is that Gethin and Bodhi translated kaya in 3rd jhana the same exact way they translate kaya in a 7sb awakening factor and 4 jhana context the same way, as "body". And B. Sujato also translates kaya as "body" in 16 APS breath meditation, 7sb awakening factors, and that's the same word "body" that goes in 3rd jhana. 8 vimokkhas and nirvana are not 4 jhanas, so the 'touching with the body" does not apply.

In MN 19 the relevant word you should be focusing is passadha, not asraddha.
(code phrase for successful entry into 4 jhānas)
“āraddhaṃ kho pana me, bhikkhave,
“aroused indeed in me, monks
(7sb → 3. 🏹) vīriyaṃ ahosi a-sallīnaṃ,
(7sb → 3. 🏹), vigor was un-flagging,
(7sb → 1. 🐘) upaṭṭhitā sati a-sam-muṭṭhā,
(7sb → 1. 🐘) established remembering, not-forgetful,
(7sb → 5. 🌊) passaddho kāyo a-sāraddho,
(7sb → 5. 🌊) Pacified body, un-aroused,
(7sb → 6. 🌄) samāhitaṃ cittaṃ ekaggaṃ.
(7sb → 6. 🌄) Undistractability-and-lucidity (of) mind, singular.
(STED 4 jhānas)
(STED 1st Jhāna)
🚫💑 vivicc’eva kāmehi
🚫💑 Quite-withdrawn (from) sensuality,
DooDoot wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 9:06 pm
frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:58 pm
Now show me a passage where that same "touching with the kaya" is applied ONLY TO THE FOUR JHANAS, and then you have a case.
The above question is irrelevant. I think the question should be asked: "Why is kaya mentioned in the 3rd jhana?" The possible answer to this question is the 3rd jhana is deemed as somewhat special for whatever reason, as follows: "the noble ones declare, ‘Equanimous and mindful, one meditates in bliss.’". Therefore, the question should be asked: "Why does the stock 4 jhana description include the phrase: noble ones declare"? :shrug:

...
Hello Frank. I think you probably should substantiate the above comment with some quotes from B. Bodhi & Rupert Gethin. I have read B. Thanissaro say "touching with the body" has a "somatic" aspect but the suttas I posted show B. Thanissaro's ideas are very questionable here (because the suttas I posted say the immaterial spheres are "touched with the body").
...
Also, in B. Thanissaro's footnote, below, he says the PTS translation is "personal experience". I pointed out before this is how I.B. Horner translated the phrase. Therefore, if Rupert Gethin's ideas are as you claim, they really are merely his personal ideas rather than a view that represents the PTS as a whole.
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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by frank k »

The problem is you're too ignorant and lazy about doing your due diligence before making ridiculous statements. I never disputed that kāya has non physical usages. I'm not going to repeat what I already laid out in the article which you obviously didn't read.
AN 5.28, AN 5.28 commentary, KN Peta, Agama parallel to SN 48.40, all those passages I quote in the article unambiguously establish the kaya in 3rd jhana as the physical body. Those are all Theravada 'authorities' that predate the Vism. Do your due diligence. The ignorant rantings you waste our time with on this thread are going to last forever on the internet archives, for all your great grandchildren to see.
Volo wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 6:40 pm
frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 5:58 pm
If you guys don't understand this point, and I suspect many people don't, you really need to brush up on logic and critical thinking because you're going to have a lot of misunderstandings about the EBT.
The problem is that you think you have the authority to decide when kāya is used metaphorically, and when referring to physical body. The point of the above quotes is to show that kāya quite often doesn't refer to physical body, even when talking about rūpa jhānas. There are many more examples of "non-physical-body" usages of kāya in PED and Critical Pali dictionary. But although it's unambiguously used NOT for the physical body when talking about 3rd jhāna in particular, you keep insisting that in a 3rd jhāna stock phrase it refers only to the physical body and nothing else. So, who need to brush up on logic and critical thinking?
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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by Volo »

frank k wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:39 am
The problem is you're too ignorant and lazy about doing your due diligence before making ridiculous statements. I never disputed that kāya has non physical usages. I'm not going to repeat what I already laid out in the article which you obviously didn't read.
AN 5.28, AN 5.28 commentary, KN Peta, Agama parallel to SN 48.40, all those passages I quote in the article unambiguously establish the kaya in 3rd jhana as the physical body. Those are all Theravada 'authorities' that predate the Vism. Do your due diligence. The ignorant rantings you waste our time with on this thread are going to last forever on the internet archives, for all your great grandchildren to see.
Does FKRJ (frank k's redefinition of jhāna) acknowledges the importance of right speech for the development of jhānas? Doesn't seem so...

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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by confusedlayman »

frank k wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 3:28 pm
confusedlayman wrote:
Sun Sep 15, 2019 12:02 pm
do you feel physical body in 3rd jhana?
Yes. The same way that pleasure chemicals flood your brain and body when you have a sexual orgasm, first and second jhana physical pleasure feels like that. In the four jhanas, one has spatial awareness and body awareness. You're able to feel leg pain, you can hear sounds and feel mosquito bites. If you've slipped into a samadhi where you can not locate your body in space, can't hear sounds, then you're no longer in the four jhanas. You're in an arupa samadhi.

See AN 5.28, which contains the famous four jhana similes, and its commentary:
AN 5.28, DN 2, MN 39, jhāna simile commentary – physical!
AN-a 5, 1. paṭhamapaṇṇāsakaṃ, 3. pañcaṅgikavaggo, 8. pañcaṅgikasuttavaṇṇanā, para. 1 ⇒
(geoff shatz trans.)
imameva kāyan-ti imaṃ karajakāyaṃ.
“This very body:” this body born of action [i.e. born of kamma].
Abhisandetī-ti temeti sneheti,
“He drenches:” he moistens,
sabbattha pavatta-pīti-sukhaṃ karoti.
he extends joy and pleasure everywhere.
Parisandetī-ti samantato sandeti.
“Steeps:” to flow all over.
Paripūretī-ti vāyunā bhastaṃ viya pūreti.
“Fills:” like filling a bellows with air.
Parippharatī-ti samantato phusati.
“Permeates:” to touch all over.
sabbāvato kāyassāti assa bhikkhuno
“His whole body:” in this monk’s body,
sabbakoṭṭhāsavato kāyassa kiñci upādinnakasantatipavattiṭṭhāne
with all its parts, in the place where acquired [material] continuity occurs there is not even the smallest part consisting of
Chavi-maṃsa-lohit-ānugataṃ
skin, flesh, and blood

aṇumattampi ṭhānaṃ paṭhamaj-jhāna-sukhena a-phuṭaṃ nāma na hoti.
that is not-permeated with the pleasure of the first-jhāna.
hi frank,

do you know any Sutta that says this expereince?

meditation experience sequence-
1) body paralysed, feeling of extreme bliss (million times atleast powerful than metta of everything), awareness, perception of body, very very slight thinking

2) body paralysed, feeling of extreme bliss (million times atleast powerful than metta of everything), awareness, perception of body

3) feeling of extreme bliss (this bliss more blissful and content than step 1 and 2 bliss because this bliss don't belong to feeling of bliss with perception of body), awareness, complete absence of perception of body (meditator thinks body disappeared and perceives as feeling of bliss everywhere in the space infinite and awareness of feeling alone without body)

Body touch, temperature, hearing, vision, dreams, nimitta,dreams, speech are absent completely and feeling of anything other than bliss is not there from first stage onwards. after 1,2,3,3,2,1 sequence when bliss feeling end but body is still paralysed with no external touch, or sensation or hearing or whatever it is.. the concentration is so fast that it moves and becomes the slave.

In the 3rd sequence, there is feeling of bliss without body spatial awareness and its not 3rd jhana (according to you) and its not Arupa jhana as feeling is there and I never say/claim my experience is jhana but want to know if it is someother meditation so I know name and can further get guidance as that experience gave me so positive outcomes so can suggest any Sutta or any other meditator experience?

the above experience is also mine ( more than 10 times experienced )
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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by DooDoot »

frank k wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:29 am
The relevant point is that Gethin and Bodhi translated kaya in 3rd jhana the same exact way they translate kaya in a 7sb awakening factor and 4 jhana context the same way, as "body".
Gethin & Bodhi are not the Buddha. Bodhi can be wrong, such as his translation of "kaya" in SN 12.19.
frank k wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:29 am
And B. Sujato also translates kaya as "body" in 16 APS breath meditation, 7sb awakening factors, and that's the same word "body" that goes in 3rd jhana.
Pali words such as dukkha, sankhara, dhamma, nirodha, kaya, etc, don't necessarily get translated in the same way in each context. Your point again is non-sequitur.
frank k wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:29 am
8 vimokkhas and nirvana are not 4 jhanas, so the 'touching with the body" does not apply.
The above is merely your opinion. It is not a fact. AN 9.43 includes all jhanas & spheres as "body witnessed".
frank k wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:29 am
In MN 19 the relevant word you should be focusing is passadha, not asraddha.
I didn't refer to "focusing". I used asraddha to refute your idea jhana was similar to sexual orgasm. :)
Last edited by DooDoot on Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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B. Sujato makes the body disappear in 3rd jhana

Post by frank k »

B. Sujato makes the body disappear in 3rd jhana
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... -3rd.html
excerpt:
The justification B. Sujato uses to make the physical body disappear, is that the pali word 'kāya'
in some meditative contexts might not be referring to the physical body. For example, in these passages:
...
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Re: B. Sujato makes the body disappear in 3rd jhana

Post by DooDoot »

frank k wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 1:15 pm
the pali word 'kāya' in some meditative contexts might not be referring to the physical body.
Indeed. From MN 118 - Anapanasati Sutta:
Kāyesu kāyaññatarāhaṃ, bhikkhave, evaṃ vadāmi yadidaṃ—assāsapassāsā.

I tell you, monks, that this — the in-&-out breath — is classed as a body among bodies.
In fact, the word 'kaya' in 'kayanupassana' referring to only the physical body is actually questionable. For example, the Patisambhidamagga correctly :thumbsup: says step 3 of Anapanasati is about experiencing the rupa-kaya & nama-kaya together with the breathing; thus the correct translation of "sabba kaya" as "all bodies" or "all groups". Since 99% of Buddhism is wrong translating "sabba kaya" as "whole body of the breath"; is seems 99% of Buddhism is also probably wrong asserting 'kayanupassana' refers to only closely watching the physical body. In MN 118, the phrase: "he trains himself" is found with all steps (except the first two). If kayanupassana was only the physical body, there can be no wisdom component of "training" (which would obviously be incorrect, since 'training' is three-fold). :smile:
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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by frank k »

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... in-4.html
Glossing the base of infinite space formula,
which is the samadhi attainment right above fourth jhana.
It shows that, if that is the attainment where one transcends sights, sounds, smells,....,
then it means in the 4th jhana, and first through 4th jhana,
one has NOT transcended sights, sounds, smells...,
i.e. the 5 sense faculties of the body are still active.
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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by Volo »

frank k wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:51 pm
Glossing the base of infinite space formula,
which is the samadhi attainment right above fourth jhana.
It shows that, if that is the attainment where one transcends sights, sounds, smells,....,
then it means in the 4th jhana, and first through 4th jhana,
one has NOT transcended sights, sounds, smells...,
i.e. the 5 sense faculties of the body are still active.
Could you quote the relevant passage? As far as I remember the stock formula for infinite space is talking about "surmounting the perceptions of forms". One can perceive forms in rūpa jhāna. For example ānāpānasati nimitta in ānāpānasati jhāna.

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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by ToVincent »

"Revisiting" MN59:
https://justpaste.it/2veig

___

By the way, kaya is breath - and by extention, it is what "glues" the ayatanani.
Breath from sankhara nidana (as breath) to the anapana in salayatana (as breath (anapana) and "glued" body).
With an "inherited" stop in namarupa nidana.

Know your Vedic philosophy, for Buddha's sake.
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
What kind of magic do you use?

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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by confusedlayman »

frank k wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:51 pm
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... in-4.html
Glossing the base of infinite space formula,
which is the samadhi attainment right above fourth jhana.
It shows that, if that is the attainment where one transcends sights, sounds, smells,....,
then it means in the 4th jhana, and first through 4th jhana,
one has NOT transcended sights, sounds, smells...,
i.e. the 5 sense faculties of the body are still active.
They may work but u cant perceive it or mind wont process it hence there is no eye conciousness, ear conciiusness etc it is impossible to notice external sence based stuffs in first jhana itself.
Master said dont neglect concentration ... practice jhana "O dhamma wheel users! "

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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by ToVincent »

Read at least the "KĀYA as BREATH" part (for Buddha's sake).
Holly cow! - Is it so hard to understand the Indian philosophy at the time of Buddha?
https://justpaste.it/57le2
.
.
Some working for the Mara's world; some for the Brahma's world; some for the Unborn.
.
What kind of magic do you use?

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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by auto »

ToVincent wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 6:32 pm
"Revisiting" MN59:
https://justpaste.it/2veig

___

By the way, kaya is breath - and by extention, it is what "glues" the ayatanani.
Breath from sankhara nidana (as breath) to the anapana in salayatana (as breath (anapana) and "glued" body).
With an "inherited" stop in namarupa nidana.

Know your Vedic philosophy, for Buddha's sake.
.
.
i'm not sleeping on it.
ka + ayu. at 4th jhana the breath ceases could mean the function(sankhara) of ventilation(moving breath) is ceased. Means you actually reach the end point within a life where breathing is not required and continue on heat/usmā but it doesn't last long because heat depends on life(ayu) and you have to(add citta to body) breath again.

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Re: solving the murder mystery from 3rd jhāna

Post by frank k »

If you're in a samadhi where it's impossible to hear sounds, then what you're doing isn't first jhana, and any of the four jhanas, by the EBT definition.
Even when Mahamoggallana heard sounds in the arupa samadhis, the Buddha called it "impure", he didn't say it disquailfied it from being an arupa samadhi, where Mogallana could drift in and out of hearing sounds or not.
confusedlayman wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 11:13 pm
frank k wrote:
Mon Sep 16, 2019 3:51 pm
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... in-4.html
Glossing the base of infinite space formula,
which is the samadhi attainment right above fourth jhana.
It shows that, if that is the attainment where one transcends sights, sounds, smells,....,
then it means in the 4th jhana, and first through 4th jhana,
one has NOT transcended sights, sounds, smells...,
i.e. the 5 sense faculties of the body are still active.
They may work but u cant perceive it or mind wont process it hence there is no eye conciousness, ear conciiusness etc it is impossible to notice external sence based stuffs in first jhana itself.
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