if you witness a crime

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
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suaimhneas
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by suaimhneas » Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:00 pm

frank k wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:37 pm
I don't think conceptualization would fall under vitakka .
OK, thanks for clarifying your views on that. It sounds like V&V in your understanding is literally unvocalized mental speech (and not including the intentions or concepts underlying it)?
Did you get a chance to read all the posts above I made yesterday?
Especially the one with the the link to the Vism. first jhana.
If vitakka even in Vism. and VRJ (vism redef . of jhana) has to mean "formulation", mental talk,
i.e. mentally chanting 'earth kasina, earth kasina', then how could EBT vitakka not include your "formulation" stage?
Yes, but I must admit I didn't delve too deeply into your kasina Visuddhimagga point simply because it was a Vism. point! However, I remedied that and tracked down relevant the passages there just now. The internal chanting of "earth" seems to only be suggested for a preliminary beginner stage in the build-up to access concentration. After that, it reads like learning and counterpart signs take over once established. So I don't think the point is particularly relevant (it wouldn't have been a particularly strong one, anyway, given its Vism. source). No mention of chanting either in the parallel Vimuttimagga section.
There's already a rich vocabulary for preverbal mental activity, why would the Buddha need to hijack vitakka to make it redundantly also cover the same territory and leave it ambiguous?
So under what Pali umbrella term would this *conceptualization* stage lie if not under V&V or vaci sankhara? If conceptualization doesn't fall out at the 2nd jhana, then the presumed alternative would be that it continues all the way along until the cessation of feeling and perception and the mental formation (citta sankhara) ceases? MN 44 identifies these mental fabrications (citta sankhara) as vedana (feeling) and sanna (perception). There doesn't appear to be a great deal of room left over there into which to squeeze conceptualization?
I need to run, I'll respond to the rest of your post later today probably.
Thanks, no worries.I'll look forward to that!

frank k
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by frank k » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:00 pm

suaimhneas wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 5:00 pm

Yes, but I must admit I didn't delve too deeply into your kasina Visuddhimagga point simply because it was a Vism. point! However, I remedied that and tracked down relevant the passages there just now. The internal chanting of "earth" seems to only be suggested for a preliminary beginner stage in the build-up to access concentration. After that, it reads like learning and counterpart signs take over once established. So I don't think the point is particularly relevant (it wouldn't have been a particularly strong one, anyway, given its Vism. source). No mention of chanting either in the parallel Vimuttimagga section.
You need to read that whole section carefully, not just where it says earth kasina. I at first thought the same as you, but the Ab. commentary explicitly saying that's what differentiated first and second VRJ (vism redefined jhana). And also the vitakka as vaci-sankhara, mentally reciting words, like 'infinite space, infinite space' is used for arupa samadhis as well. It doesn't matter exactly whether it's considered part of access, or preliminary, or an impure VRJ, the point is that the pali word vitakka has to be understood as mental chatter, even in Vism, and must be translated accordingly. That's why nanamoli, who translated EBT, Vism, KN Ps, we have to really respect and pay attention to what words he uses, because he's doing the ultimate balancing act of finding a word that works for EBT all the way through late Abhidhamma.

In Vimt., unlike Vism., one can do the brahma viharas the EBT way, having thoughts of "may you be happy" for example, that is the abyapada-sankappo abyapada-vitakka in first jhana, the same as MN 19.

sankhara is a complex topic. But the way I understand it, for MN 44, I see these types of sankharas as essential, key ingredients of each sankhara.
1. in breath out breath, without that as an essential key ingredient, you can't have a kaya. It would die within 7 minutes on average.
2. perceptions and vedana, without that as an essential key ingredient, you can't really speak of a mind/citta.
3. vitakka and vicara, without that as an essential key ingredient, you can't have vaca/vocalization.

Let's say you know how to play a guitar. But you need to formulate the actual words to speak out loud. If you don't formulate that knowledge into language and words, you can't communicated that by voice. That's the key essential part of vaca, the part you can't do without. If you go by b. Sujato's corrupted interpretation, this is what you get: (audio file in the link)

https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... n-44.html
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frank k
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by frank k » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:24 pm

I thought I made my point clearly in a previous post, but I don't think you're getting it. If Vism. had to use vitakka in its EBT meaning (mental talk with words) , that's confirmation of what vitakka means in the EBT. Otherwise, they could just pull the same con job as B. sujato and say the vitakka is multi valenced and means two things in two different contexts. They wouldn't have to bother creating access concentration, and other tricks to work around the meaning of vitakka.

I've studied a lot of fraud, crime, and audits, and one of the things you have to do is put yourself in their shoes. Follow the money. What's their incentive? What are they trying to accomplish? And work backwards from that.

Another thing in common with crime and fraud in religious and secular contexts, is you have a pretty accurate guess of what's really going on by observing their actions, and also what they don't do. Don't go by their words. What do B. Sujato and B. Analayo have in common with V&V? When I privately and publicly bring up problems with their thesis, they're vague, evasive. Such as, "I already expressed my views in my book", and when you try to ask them, "what part of the book, I read the whole thing many times and didn't see it", they still can't directly answer specific questions. So huge lack of transparency.

Most of what I'm sharing with you guys about how B. Sujato's V&V works, I had to figure out by reverse engineering and auditing what he did, and examine how the pieces fit together. I couldn't ever get a word out of him to explain what is he really doing, what he based it on, etc. That in itself of course is not proof of fraud or crime, but it matches the pattern.

It's a similar situation with how late Abhidhamma kills the kaya/body in the four jhanas, then tries to Jimmy Hoffa the evidence. Now if B. Sujato's and Ajahn's interpretation of how the body disappears in the first jhana were true (via vivicceva kamehi), then don't you think Abhidhamma would have used the same trick? Buddhaghosa had a huge team of scholar expert monks working under him, you think B. Sujato and A. Brahm has some brilliant insight 1500 years later that those scholar experts didn't?
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frank k
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by frank k » Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:44 pm

It's not just sports, it's any activity. Driving a car, washing dishes, using "may you be happy" to enter first jhana. Dropping the words "may you be happy", but retaining the sentiment and feeling, into second jhana.
You see a snake in front of you.
The perception (sañña of snake) arises, but before you can yell out "snake!" (vaca/speech), or think the words "snake!" (vitakka)
You've already comprehended it (pajanati, sam-pajano) on a pre-vitakka pre-verbal level it and jumped out of the way.

That's the difference between first and second jhana.
first jhana, you mentally think the thought 'snake'.
second jhana, you don't think to mentally say the words 'snake', you already comprehended/pajanati the sanna/perception and jumped out of the way.

Again, as I stated in a previous post, in suttas such as MN 18, AN 4.41, there's an established hierarchy of preverbal mental activities that aren't part of vitakka. There's no reason to hijack vitakka and add redundant duties for it. And when B. sujato does hijack it, you get infinite regression like a snake trying to eat its own tail. How can sati and sampajano of AN 4.41 do the job of observing rise of fall of vitakka if it needs to place and connect the mind in order to observe it?

Srilankaputra wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:10 am
suaimhneas wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:40 am


Well, I thought "subverbal" was an apt word given MN 44:
“Friend Visakha, in-breathing and out-breathing are bodily, these are states bound up with the body; that is why in-breathing and out-breathing are the bodily formation. First one applies thought and sustains thought, and subsequently one breaks out into speech; that is why applied thought and sustained thought are the verbal formation. Perception and feeling are mental, these are states bound up with the mind; that is why perception and feeling are the mental formation.”
Ignoring the applied and sustained thought translation :) it seems V&V is something underlying speech (hence my use of "subverbal").
This is a very interesting observation. I think people who has played sports can attest to this. It's possible to get in to a state where what needs to be done can be precisely known and even a future move known in advance all without any language(mental talk) involved.
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frank k
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by frank k » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:06 pm

suaimhneas wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:40 am
...
I'm not taking anyone at their word (yours or Sujato's). I actually tend more towards your views in some of these issues than Sujato's, but I'm not looking for simplicity and clarity that may not be there in the texts. I'll turn your question around and ask does any EBT say V&V is literally unvocalized mental speech? Maybe V&V is that. Maybe it isn't. I'm still interested in reading a concise clear sutta-based argument for that. To me, it seems more likely that V&V's meaning lies somewhere in similar territory to sankappo and sankhara.
This is a strange question to me, because I take a simple occam's razor approach, and then I see it in suttas everywhere that V&V is vaci-sankhara, and all the pieces fit together perfectly, like the glass slipper sliding like butter onto cinderalla's foot. So from my point of view, the evidence is everywhere, I don't even know where to begin. Maybe SN 36.11.

Sankappo, I'll deal with another time, I need to research it more. There is a thread on dhammawheel, where I asked for sutta citations where sankappo was not equivalent to vitakka, and Ven. dhammanando cited a few suttas.

The preverbal stuff, in the 4 jhanas context, and even formless attainemnts, S&S (pajanati, sampajano), sañña (perception), manasi karoti (paying attention) are the words used most often. They do the job just fine. Why do you need to force vitakka to have an extended range to redundantly cover it and add ambiguity and confusion? You say EBT suttas made you think vitakka had more of a subverbal range, but why is that important to have? It still seems to me you were influenced by corrupted Dhamma ideas, and trying to read it back into EBT, instead of reading EBT at face value first and see if its coherent.

Take a look at #1 case in AN 7.61 here, everything all highlighted and easy to find.
https://notesonthedhamma.blogspot.com/2 ... n-44.html

There are already words that are doing the job of nonverbally processing data in jhana, and words for placing and connecting (paying much attention to a samadhi nimitta).



suaimhneas wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:40 am
...

On your final post, I'm not dismissing your experience. I'm actually fairly open-minded on these issues. It's just that you are making some very strong and definitive statements and I'm trying to tease out your evidence. Plus "disproving" viewpoints on the opposite side of the jhana interpretation spectrum isn't the same as actually "proving" your own. You are making some strong statements too about "dhamma crimes". I'm here mostly because I found myself used as an example of someone where a translation led to "wrong view". I'm here merely trying to figure out where it all went wrong on V&V (if it did)! ;)
I'm glad you decided to jump in. You're an exemplar of the model Buddhist. You consider various theories and check the suttas to see if it matches up. Always question authority! I've already benefited from the exchange. I'm going to try to concisely summarize the passages that show vitakka as vaci-sankhara.

One other thing. Vitakka also appears all over the place in the EBT un-named (as vitakka) , as quoted text with iti or 'ti.
It can also be a 'dhamma'.

http://lucid24.org/tped/d/dhamma/index. ... mmamsutva
look under the section, dhamma-vitakka. AN 8.30 is explicit, where you see dhamma-vitakka must be mental word talk, because it transitions right into first jhana.
In AN 6.10, they are clearly all dhamma vitakka just like AN 8.30, but the word the sutta uses for them are just recollections/anus-sati, and they appear in iti pronoun quoted text.
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suaimhneas
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by suaimhneas » Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:11 pm

frank k wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:00 pm
You need to read that whole section carefully, not just where it says earth kasina. I at first thought the same as you, but the Ab. commentary explicitly saying that's what differentiated first and second VRJ (vism redefined jhana). And also the vitakka as vaci-sankhara, mentally reciting words, like 'infinite space, infinite space' is used for arupa samadhis as well. It doesn't matter exactly whether it's considered part of access, or preliminary, or an impure VRJ, the point is that the pali word vitakka has to be understood as mental chatter, even in Vism, and must be translated accordingly. That's why nanamoli, who translated EBT, Vism, KN Ps, we have to really respect and pay attention to what words he uses, because he's doing the ultimate balancing act of finding a word that works for EBT all the way through late Abhidhamma.
I had a look now. From what I can see, there isn't a successive progression through the jhana. Every time the meditator seems to come out of jhana, do a mental review of the jhana, then start reciting mentally the given phrase, sounds like then progressing into access concentration, achieving the sign, then perhaps first jhana(?) and then straight onto whatever jhana or arupa jhana or whatever they are actually aiming for (hopping in and out of jhana as they go). The words seem a bit vague. Would cetainly be interesting if they are implying the mental phrasing is being repeated within the first jhana, but I'm not entirely convinced it is.

Anyway, I'll get back to you on your other posts in the next few days when I get the time!

frank k
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by frank k » Mon Aug 19, 2019 10:35 pm

suaimhneas wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:11 pm
frank k wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:00 pm
You need to read that whole section carefully, not just where it says earth kasina. I at first thought the same as you, but the Ab. commentary explicitly saying that's what differentiated first and second VRJ (vism redefined jhana). And also the vitakka as vaci-sankhara, mentally reciting words, like 'infinite space, infinite space' is used for arupa samadhis as well. It doesn't matter exactly whether it's considered part of access, or preliminary, or an impure VRJ, the point is that the pali word vitakka has to be understood as mental chatter, even in Vism, and must be translated accordingly. That's why nanamoli, who translated EBT, Vism, KN Ps, we have to really respect and pay attention to what words he uses, because he's doing the ultimate balancing act of finding a word that works for EBT all the way through late Abhidhamma.
I had a look now. From what I can see, there isn't a successive progression through the jhana. Every time the meditator seems to come out of jhana, do a mental review of the jhana, then start reciting mentally the given phrase, sounds like then progressing into access concentration, achieving the sign, then perhaps first jhana(?) and then straight onto whatever jhana or arupa jhana or whatever they are actually aiming for (hopping in and out of jhana as they go). The words seem a bit vague. Would cetainly be interesting if they are implying the mental phrasing is being repeated within the first jhana, but I'm not entirely convinced it is.

Anyway, I'll get back to you on your other posts in the next few days when I get the time!
See previous post
viewtopic.php?p=524855#p524852

If you trace Abhidhamma and how jhana, V&V get corrupted from Ab Vibhanga, through vimt, through vism., you see it's a gradual process. In Ab Vibhanga, V&V in first jhana still retains the proper meaning of the 3 sankappa/vitakkas as mental words. And Vimt. is still good, even with the creation of access concentration, the first jhana v&v still works as before in EBT and AB Vibhanga. But in Vism. first jhana and access concentration now have different meanings for V&V, but their corruption is not perfectly executed, as the passages you read carefully show, being kind of ambiguous as to exactly which V&V is being referred to. Crime takes time to cover up and wipe up all the blood, guts, etc. And even so, there may be evidence left behind that give clues of the coverup.

The mistake you're making above, is you're focusing on trying to determine whether it definitely is in jhana when the mental recitation happens. That's not important for establishing how 'vitakka' needs to be translated. Look at all the instances of vitakka in pali, and plug in sujato's 'placing and connecting', and it makes the passage incoherent, because 'thought' still needs to be in there to establish relationship with the quoted vaci-sankhara of 'earth kasina', 'infinite space', etc.
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frank k
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by frank k » Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:06 pm

follow up to post above:

here's the Ab Vibhanga definition of vitakka for first jhana which is almost exactly identical to mn 117 samma sankappo
http://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/v ... #flink-93
(note I used sc's u thittila translation, which is WRONG.) So you really need to look at the pali vitakka and ignore where he has "initial application", and use the vitakka for the 'earth kasina, earth kasina context'. Which obviously has to include 'thought' somwhere in the translation for vitakka.

Next, you compare to to Vism. gloss for first jhana vitakka:
http://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/v ... #flink-16
So this gloss, inside first jhana, is the only place where 'vitakka' gets a special late Theravada Abhidhamma meaning of "gluing your mind to a visual nimitta".

Everywhere else vitakka occurs in the pali canon, including early abhidhamma and vimt, excluding vism 1st jhana gloss, must be translated and interpreted with the vitakka matching 'earth kasina, earth kasina'.

Now do you guys understand?
Now you understand why U thitila's translation of vitakka in the Ab Vibhanga passage quoted above is wronger than wrong?

B. Sujato's 'placing the mind and keeping it connected' has the same meaning as U titthila's wronger than wrong translation.
Which would make B. Sujato's even a greater degree of wronger than wrong. Because whereas U titithila can at least appear to justify his wrong translation with the Vism. 1st jhana gloss, B. Sujato can not point to any EBT passage for his mistranslation.

So he manufactures his own by mistranslating MN 44 vaci-sankhara vitakka as 'placing the mind and keeping it connected'.
In effect, he's creating his own Abhidhamma within the EBT. And you guys are trying to tell me this is not a crime against Dhamma?
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Srilankaputra
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by Srilankaputra » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:29 am

frank k wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:44 pm

You see a snake in front of you.
The perception (sañña of snake) arises, but before you can yell out "snake!" (vaca/speech), or think the words "snake!" (vitakka)
You've already comprehended it (pajanati, sam-pajano) on a pre-vitakka pre-verbal level it and jumped out of the way.

That's the difference between first and second jhana.
first jhana, you mentally think the thought 'snake'.
second jhana, you don't think to mentally say the words 'snake', you already comprehended/pajanati the sanna/perception and jumped out of the way.
How does this tally with the following comment you made

Jhana really is a yogic energy re-routing. For a beginner without jhana experience and competence, ordinary V&V is typically energetically disruptive enough to prevent a proper 4 jhana from happening. But for one who already is skilled in the energy rerouting, even in arupa samadhi, arguably more difficult than 4th jhana, one can be in a hyper active mental chattering mode (eg. 'wow! this is awesome! where is my hand and body? i can't find my body?!) without breaking out of arupa samadhi. So really many people who are insisting first jhana V&V needs to be a certain way, probably just have not had a broad enough samadhi experience from which to judge.
Can you describe your personal experience of second jhana. Do you still have this mental mental chattering in your experience of second jhana??
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

Srilankaputra
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Location: Sri Lanka

Re: if you witness a crime

Post by Srilankaputra » Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:38 am

frank k wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 3:37 pm
I don't think conceptualization would fall under vitakka .
I was not talking about a passing moment of conceptualization or visualisation. But an actual state. I believe it's called the 'flow state' .
Srilankaputra wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 11:10 am
suaimhneas wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 8:40 am


Well, I thought "subverbal" was an apt word given MN 44:
“Friend Visakha, in-breathing and out-breathing are bodily, these are states bound up with the body; that is why in-breathing and out-breathing are the bodily formation. First one applies thought and sustains thought, and subsequently one breaks out into speech; that is why applied thought and sustained thought are the verbal formation. Perception and feeling are mental, these are states bound up with the mind; that is why perception and feeling are the mental formation.”
Ignoring the applied and sustained thought translation :) it seems V&V is something underlying speech (hence my use of "subverbal").
This is a very interesting observation. I think people who has played sports can attest to this. It's possible to get in to a state where what needs to be done can be precisely known and even a future move known in advance all without any language(mental talk) involved.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

frank k
Posts: 509
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: if you witness a crime

Post by frank k » Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:32 am

The jhanas are not an exact science, and there are going to be quite a range of subjective experiences that are really hard to objectively conclude which jhana one is in, or whether it can even be considered jhana.
So keep that in mind when asking anyone about their personal experiences.

I would describe first jhana, as similar to second jhana that is being interrupted at high frequency with vitakka and vicara (mental words spoken in silence). The samadhi-born pitisukha of second jhana, when you first experiencing it, can be shocking, sudden, overwhelming. In comparison to the pitisukha of first jhana, 2nd jhana can feel exponentially stronger in pitisukha, like a full body orgasm that's so intense it's hard to take. And this can last for hours. If one doesn't ever get intense orgasmic pleasure, that doesn't mean one isn't experiencing first or second jhana, so don't make that assumption. The point though, is that second jhana, relative to first, will probably feel exponentially more intense in power. Like with microphone in speakers close by that gets caught in a feedback loop and the loudness suddenly ramps up exponentially hurting your ears.

So first jhana, one will naturally have thoughts like, "wow! this is awesome! is this first jhana? " etc. And in the EBT, having vitakka and vicara in first jhana serves an important role in the learning process, in leading one into jhana. For example the instructions for metta: "with a mind infused with friendliness, in one direction, pervade..."
vaca = voice = vocally reciting those metta Dharma instructions
vitakka & vicara = vaci-sankhara = voice-fabrications = mentally reciting those metta Dharma instructions, which can concurrently happen WHILE one is in first jhana.
V&V drop out in second jhana which is why second jhana is noble silence, not first jhana.

Now for a sports example, 'flow state' is comparable to jhana quality of samadhi.
vaca would be comparable to a tv commentator describing a sports match with voice.
vitakka and vicara would be a mental commentary unspoken, similar to the vocal commentary in meaning and content.
flow state, like 2nd jhana or higher, you're just processing all the data of the sports event with no need to expend energy to form mental words and labels. If you're the participating athletes, you're operating in samadhi. And when athletes choke, make mistakes, it's usually because of mental vitakka and vicara ("can I do this? what if I lose?") that energetically disrupts them from physical relaxation for optimal 'flow', or samadhi, undistractible lucidity.
Srilankaputra wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 4:29 am
frank k wrote:
Mon Aug 19, 2019 7:44 pm

You see a snake in front of you.
The perception (sañña of snake) arises, but before you can yell out "snake!" (vaca/speech), or think the words "snake!" (vitakka)
You've already comprehended it (pajanati, sam-pajano) on a pre-vitakka pre-verbal level it and jumped out of the way.

That's the difference between first and second jhana.
first jhana, you mentally think the thought 'snake'.
second jhana, you don't think to mentally say the words 'snake', you already comprehended/pajanati the sanna/perception and jumped out of the way.
How does this tally with the following comment you made

Jhana really is a yogic energy re-routing. For a beginner without jhana experience and competence, ordinary V&V is typically energetically disruptive enough to prevent a proper 4 jhana from happening. But for one who already is skilled in the energy rerouting, even in arupa samadhi, arguably more difficult than 4th jhana, one can be in a hyper active mental chattering mode (eg. 'wow! this is awesome! where is my hand and body? i can't find my body?!) without breaking out of arupa samadhi. So really many people who are insisting first jhana V&V needs to be a certain way, probably just have not had a broad enough samadhi experience from which to judge.
Can you describe your personal experience of second jhana. Do you still have this mental mental chattering in your experience of second jhana??
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Srilankaputra
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by Srilankaputra » Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:30 pm

I noticed that you didn't answer my question directly. Can I take the following comment as implying that you still experience mental chatter albeit at a lower frequency in second jhana?

frank k wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 11:32 am
I would describe first jhana, as similar to second jhana that is being interrupted at high frequency with vitakka and vicara (mental words spoken in silence).
You might be able to explain it as fluctuation between first jhana and second jhana. But what about the higher jhanas? If I understand your comment below correctly you can still have mental chatter even up to the arupa jhanas.

PS: I am not saying that I accept your idea of vitakka-vicara in the first jhana as mental verbal chatter or that disappearance of body parts is arupa jhana.


Jhana really is a yogic energy re-routing. For a beginner without jhana experience and competence, ordinary V&V is typically energetically disruptive enough to prevent a proper 4 jhana from happening. But for one who already is skilled in the energy rerouting, even in arupa samadhi, arguably more difficult than 4th jhana, one can be in a hyper active mental chattering mode (eg. 'wow! this is awesome! where is my hand and body? i can't find my body?!) without breaking out of arupa samadhi. So really many people who are insisting first jhana V&V needs to be a certain way, probably just have not had a broad enough samadhi experience from which to judge.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

frank k
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by frank k » Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:02 pm

Srilankaputra wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 12:30 pm
...
I noticed that you didn't answer my question directly. Can I take the following comment as implying that you still experience mental chatter albeit at a lower frequency in second jhana?
...
I did not say there is mental chattering in second jhana. What I said is first jhana, is like a second jhana that is interrupted regularly by V&V. So the samadhi, piti, and sukha never ramp up to the exponentially more tangible, forceful experience in second jhana.

Once you're in second jhana, especially if you have cosmic mind blowing full body orgasm, you have extremely strong incentive to rid yourself of any V&V whatsoever to see how deep the rabbit hole goes, how much orgasmic bliss it can ramp up to.

The point I'm making about arupa samadhi where the body disappears (I did not equate that with the 4 arupa samadhi attainments), is that V&V can take place without knocking you out of that arupa samadhi. The progaganda from Ajahn Brahm and Vism. would have you believe V&V is this terrible dangerous thing that's going to prevent you from ever experiencing true first jhana. That is total hogwash. Total nonsense. It doesn't match what the suttas say at all. And it doesn't match up with experience of skilled meditators.
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by Srilankaputra » Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:30 pm

frank k wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:02 pm
Once you're in second jhana, especially if you have cosmic mind blowing full body orgasm, you have extremely strong incentive to rid yourself of any V&V whatsoever to see how deep the rabbit hole goes, how much orgasmic bliss it can ramp up to.
Sorry, It might be the way you have written it. But here you talking about ridding yourself of any vitakka-vicara whatsoever once you are in second jhana. To my understanding the jhanas are also conditioned phenemona. Second jhana will only arise once vitakka-vicara is stilled. And they stay stilled for all the higher jhanas. There is a broader classification of jhanas in the suttas as 'savitakko savicāro samādhi' and 'avitakkaavicāro samādhi'. Samadhi with vitakka-vicara and samadhi without vitakka-vicara (SN 46.52 for instance).

frank k wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 3:02 pm
The point I'm making about arupa samadhi where the body disappears (I did not equate that with the 4 arupa samadhi attainments), is that V&V can take place without knocking you out of that arupa samadhi.
Here again you are talking about vitakka-vicara taking place in arupa samadhi. I don't think that is possible since vitakka-vicara is already stilled.
O seeing one,we for refuge go to thee!
O mighty sage do thou our teacher be!

Paccuppannañca yo dhammaṃ,
Tattha tattha vipassati

“Yato yato mano nivāraye,
Na dukkhameti naṃ tato tato;
Sa sabbato mano nivāraye,
Sa sabbato dukkhā pamuccatī”ti.

frank k
Posts: 509
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2011 4:55 pm

Re: if you witness a crime

Post by frank k » Wed Aug 21, 2019 2:39 am

Srilankaputra wrote:
Tue Aug 20, 2019 5:30 pm
...
Here again you are talking about vitakka-vicara taking place in arupa samadhi. I don't think that is possible since vitakka-vicara is already stilled.
You can believe it or not, but I speak from personal experience.
Your understanding of the four jhanas doesn't accord with EBT. You can be in any of the four jhanas, and jump into different jhanas, by treating vitakka, vicara, piti, upekkha, the contents of what sati is remembering (perceptions), and what sampajano is examining/understanding (pajanati). All that happens while you're in the 4 jhanas. Sukha, being physical, is not something you can control, just like being hungry, sleepy, ill, etc. But the other variables you can flip on and off as you wish while you're in the 4 jhanas. If you're in a frozen state where you can't do that, then it's not samma samadhi, not the 4 jhanas as described in the EBT.

VRJ (vism. redefinition of jhana) is quite a different animal than jhana in the EBT.
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