if you witness a crime

Textual analysis and comparative discussion on early Buddhist sects and texts.
santa100
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by santa100 » Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:38 pm

BKh wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:06 pm
Because I pointed out that you incorrectly reported an error on the site that was fixed as soon as someone reported it correctly?

It's fine to talk about a translators biases, but this particular argument doesn't hold up.
Hold on just a minute here, I sent the email last year and have never heard anything back, that's a fact. Now, if you're not a member of SC, how exactly did you know SC fixed it "as soon as someone reported it correctly?". Please provide the exact reporter's name and date of report, and then the exact date that the error was fixed "soon after"? And say, SC did fix the error as soon as someone reported it correctly, how can you be so sure they did it quickly NOT because I've made such big noise about the incident here on DW since a year ago?

suaimhneas
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by suaimhneas » Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:47 pm

frank k wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:39 pm

I don't understand the question:
"can you *prove* using the suttas that mental speech is *not* part of V&V?",
do you mean to ask whether the suttas prove that mental speech is part of vāca (vocalized spoken speech)?
Hi Frank k,
Vocalized speech ceases in the first jhana (everyone agrees on that anyway it seems). I think your position is that mental speech continues in the first jhana. V&V still is, by definition, present in the first jhana so I had assumed that you were lumping mental speech in as part of V&V?
What the suttas clearly say, such as AN 8.30, the same mental talk explicitly stated with examples of quoted sentences, is the same vitakka in first jhana.

... [snipped AN8.30 translation] ...

Follow the word vitakka all the way through. There isn't some special different kind of vitakka that changes meaning in first jhana. Unless the Buddha expected a time traveler 1000 years after this happened, to go back and give each bhikkhu a special instruction, "by the way, vitakka in first jhana means placing the mind and keeping it connected, not ordinary thinking."
AN8.30 is a very interesting example. It certainly appears that vitakka, which runs through many parts of this sutta, involves the contemplation of a rather complex set of ideas: the "eight thoughts of a great person". On the other hand, vitakka (or its derivatives) and such contemplation continues for all four jhanas equally (not just first or second) in this sutta, which I find confusing. It's surely not V&V if it's still there in fourth jhana?

suaimhneas
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by suaimhneas » Thu Aug 29, 2019 5:00 pm

santa100 wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:38 pm
BKh wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 4:06 pm
Because I pointed out that you incorrectly reported an error on the site that was fixed as soon as someone reported it correctly?

It's fine to talk about a translators biases, but this particular argument doesn't hold up.
Hold on just a minute here, I sent the email last year and have never heard anything back, that's a fact. Now, if you're not a member of SC, how exactly did you know SC fixed it "as soon as someone reported it correctly?". Please provide the exact reporter's name and date of report, and then the exact date that the error was fixed "soon after"? And say, SC did fix the error as soon as someone reported it correctly, how can you be so sure they did it quickly NOT because I've made such big noise about the incident here on DW since a year ago?
IIRC your complaint involved the DN Sigalovada sutta (a list containing four in what should have been five items)? I did actually recall a post there in a corrections thread in which this very issue was raised. A quick search later and here's a link to that post (dated Feb 11 of this year). And it was actually corrected shortly after.

santa100
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by santa100 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:01 pm

suaimhneas wrote:I did actually recall a post there in a corrections thread in which this very issue was raised. A quick search later and here's a link to that post (dated Feb 11 of this year). And it was actually corrected shortly after.
Thanks for the info. But let's quickly go over the timeline to see how "shortly after" that small little mistake was fixed:
1. Santa originally raised the issue: Sep 16, 2018 5:07pm
2. Chritopher re-stated the issue: Feb 11, 2019 11:42am
3. Sujato notified the issue's been fixed: Apr 29, 2019 7:59pm
Lucky that he works for SuttaCentral LLC, otherwise had he been a corporate America employee, he would've gotten the boot a long time ago.

suaimhneas
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by suaimhneas » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:01 pm

santa100 wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 6:01 pm
suaimhneas wrote:I did actually recall a post there in a corrections thread in which this very issue was raised. A quick search later and here's a link to that post (dated Feb 11 of this year). And it was actually corrected shortly after.
Thanks for the info. But let's quickly go over the timeline to see how "shortly after" that small little mistake was fixed:
1. Santa originally raised the issue: Sep 16, 2018 5:07pm
2. Chritopher re-stated the issue: Feb 11, 2019 11:42am
3. Sujato notified the issue's been fixed: Apr 29, 2019 7:59pm
Lucky that he works for SuttaCentral LLC, otherwise had he been a corporate America employee, he would've gotten the boot a long time ago.
As far as I'm aware (I'm open to correction), it's not an LLC (I think a non-profit charitable trust handles finances), the only employee is a developer/programmer (others involved are volunteers) and Christopher is just an ordinary poster there. Sure, it seems no one responded to your email. There are two major possibilities for that:
1) No one checks that email address or your email went straight into gmail's spam folder (happens to me occasionally) and it got lost in delivery (or something along those lines). Cause: sloppiness or some innocent boo-boo.
2) Someone in Suttacentral is out to get you, thought something like "damn that santa100 guy, he's pestering us again" and put your email straight into trash or ignored it. Cause: deliberate malign intentions or conspiracy.
Lacking mind reading skills or the divine eye etc. I just don't know the facts. I'd personally tend to the first explanation! But what do I know? :)

santa100
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by santa100 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:34 pm

suaimhneas wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:01 pm
As far as I'm aware (I'm open to correction), it's not an LLC (I think a non-profit charitable trust handles finances), the only employee is a developer/programmer (others involved are volunteers) and Christopher is just an ordinary poster there. Sure, it seems no one responded to your email. There are two major possibilities for that:
1) No one checks that email address or your email went straight into gmail's spam folder (happens to me occasionally) and it got lost in delivery (or something along those lines). Cause: sloppiness or some innocent boo-boo.
2) Someone in Suttacentral is out to get you, thought something like "damn that santa100 guy, he's pestering us again" and put your email straight into trash or ignored it. Cause: deliberate malign intentions or conspiracy.
Lacking mind reading skills or the divine eye etc. I just don't know the facts. I'd personally tend to the first explanation! But what do I know? :)
And one simply can't rule out the 3rd possibility:
3) The intentional omitting/distorting of the Buddha's words due to translator's bias/agenda. Then the problem only got fixed only after people raised public awareness about it.
Lacking mind reading skills or the divine eye etc. I just don't know all the facts. I'd personally tend to this explanation! But what do I know? :)

suaimhneas
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by suaimhneas » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:50 pm

santa100 wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:34 pm
suaimhneas wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:01 pm
As far as I'm aware (I'm open to correction), it's not an LLC (I think a non-profit charitable trust handles finances), the only employee is a developer/programmer (others involved are volunteers) and Christopher is just an ordinary poster there. Sure, it seems no one responded to your email. There are two major possibilities for that:
1) No one checks that email address or your email went straight into gmail's spam folder (happens to me occasionally) and it got lost in delivery (or something along those lines). Cause: sloppiness or some innocent boo-boo.
2) Someone in Suttacentral is out to get you, thought something like "damn that santa100 guy, he's pestering us again" and put your email straight into trash or ignored it. Cause: deliberate malign intentions or conspiracy.
Lacking mind reading skills or the divine eye etc. I just don't know the facts. I'd personally tend to the first explanation! But what do I know? :)
And one simply can't rule out the 3rd possibility:
3) The intentional omitting/distorting of the Buddha's words due to translator's bias/agenda. Then the problem only got fixed only after people raised public awareness about it.
Lacking mind reading skills or the divine eye etc. I just don't know the facts. I'd personally tend to this explanation! But what do I know? :)
Cool! We're evidently fellow travellers navigating through a world of uncertainties and probabilities! 8-) A possible nefarious translator agenda? You do seem to have all the angles covered. I think you've definitely thought more about this than me!

santa100
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by santa100 » Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:57 pm

suaimhneas wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 7:50 pm
Cool! We're evidently fellow travellers navigating through a world of uncertainties and probabilities! 8-) A possible nefarious translator agenda? You do seem to have all the angles covered. I think you've definitely thought more about this than me!
Yep, absolutely. Frank k put it best:
previous post wrote:Now imagine if you're a famous Bhikkhu like B. Sujato or B. Analayo, viewed as heroes with legions of fans for their roles in promoting Bhikkhuni right s and women's empowerment. If you don't think there are temptations to do things to protect a reputation and the narcotic rush of being loved by so many people, then you don't understand human nature.
I'd add to it with a quote by Agent Smith from the Matrix regarding any yet-to-be-enlightened lay or monastic:
Still just human!

frank k
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by frank k » Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:49 am

Is this what you're calling mental speech, what AN 8.30 explicitly calls a 'dhamma vitakka' that transitions right into first jhana?
example from one of the 8:
This Dhamma is for one whose mind is (samadhi) concentrated, not for one whose mind is unconcentrated.
Remember, this is an oral tradition. So what you see above is called a 'dhamma vitakka', but for a disciple in the Buddha's time, it's a dhamma talk that he heard from a monk, memorized, and recites audio images of that audio dhamma vitakka. Whereas the modern oral traditionalist, not only memorizes and recalls with 'sati' the audio images, but also romanized pali script text.

Now I picked that particular vitakka, because it's very easy to see how that works as the vitakka of STED first jhana formula, and to compare with doing the equivalent activity in second jhana by dropping the audio image labels associated with the concept of that.
From third jhana we know "pitya ca viraga, upekkhako ca viharati. sato ca sampajano". Sampajano is lucid-discerning, and wherever it says in MN 10 satipatthana 'pajanati' (he discerns), that's what the sampajano of sati & sampajano is doing. So to tie it to the dhamma vitakka in this passage example, in MN 10 citta anupassana ones does "samahitam va cittam, samahitam cittam ti pajanati' (when one has undistractible and lucid mind, he lucidly discerns that".

So I don't know exactly what you call 'mental chatter', but according to EBT, any vitakka that's connected to the Dhamma, that falls under nekkhamma, abyapada, vihimsa (renunciation, non-ill will, etc), as long as one does passaddhi correctly and the vitakka has been attenuated to not block passadhi from happening, the sukha follows like a shadow and the 4 jhanas happen. (MN 19). The attenuation of vitakka is going to vary from individual. Your mileage will vary. A chess master can be blindfolded and playing against 20 novice opponents without breaking a sweat or feeling any strain. An average person playing chess, you see smoke coming out of their ears, they're sweating, tired, and mentally drained.

I don't understand this part of your question:
On the other hand, vitakka (or its derivatives) and such contemplation continues for all four jhanas equally (not just first or second) in this sutta, which I find confusing. It's surely not V&V if it's still there in fourth jhana?

suaimhneas wrote:
Thu Aug 29, 2019 4:47 pm
frank k wrote:
Wed Aug 28, 2019 2:39 pm

I don't understand the question:
"can you *prove* using the suttas that mental speech is *not* part of V&V?",
do you mean to ask whether the suttas prove that mental speech is part of vāca (vocalized spoken speech)?
Hi Frank k,
Vocalized speech ceases in the first jhana (everyone agrees on that anyway it seems). I think your position is that mental speech continues in the first jhana. V&V still is, by definition, present in the first jhana so I had assumed that you were lumping mental speech in as part of V&V?
What the suttas clearly say, such as AN 8.30, the same mental talk explicitly stated with examples of quoted sentences, is the same vitakka in first jhana.

... [snipped AN8.30 translation] ...

Follow the word vitakka all the way through. There isn't some special different kind of vitakka that changes meaning in first jhana. Unless the Buddha expected a time traveler 1000 years after this happened, to go back and give each bhikkhu a special instruction, "by the way, vitakka in first jhana means placing the mind and keeping it connected, not ordinary thinking."
AN8.30 is a very interesting example. It certainly appears that vitakka, which runs through many parts of this sutta, involves the contemplation of a rather complex set of ideas: the "eight thoughts of a great person". On the other hand, vitakka (or its derivatives) and such contemplation continues for all four jhanas equally (not just first or second) in this sutta, which I find confusing. It's surely not V&V if it's still there in fourth jhana?
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suaimhneas
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by suaimhneas » Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:43 pm

frank k wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 10:49 am
So I don't know exactly what you call 'mental chatter', but according to EBT, any vitakka that's connected to the Dhamma, that falls under nekkhamma, abyapada, vihimsa (renunciation, non-ill will, etc), as long as one does passaddhi correctly and the vitakka has been attenuated to not block passadhi from happening, the sukha follows like a shadow and the 4 jhanas happen. (MN 19). The attenuation of vitakka is going to vary from individual. Your mileage will vary. A chess master can be blindfolded and playing against 20 novice opponents without breaking a sweat or feeling any strain. An average person playing chess, you see smoke coming out of their ears, they're sweating, tired, and mentally drained.
I don't think I've used the term "mental chatter" as I think it's a bit more ambiguous in meaning. When I say "mental talk" or "mental speech" I mean the actual words and syntax of speech being repeated in the mind.
I don't understand this part of your question:
On the other hand, vitakka (or its derivatives) and such contemplation continues for all four jhanas equally (not just first or second) in this sutta, which I find confusing. It's surely not V&V if it's still there in fourth jhana?

I suppose my question arises from the way you are using AN8.30 to specifically illustrate the transition into first jhana (use of the word vitakka). However, this sutta treats all four jhana in exactly the same way. To give a bit of Bhikkhu Bodhi's translation:
When, Anuruddha, you reflect on these eight thoughts of a great person, then, as much as you wish, secluded from sensual pleasures, secluded from unwholesome states, you will enter and dwell in the first jhāna, which consists of rapture and pleasure born of seclusion, accompanied by thought and examination.

When you reflect on these eight thoughts of a great person, then, as much as you wish, with the subsiding of thought and examination, you will enter and dwell in the second jhāna, which has internal placidity and unification of mind and consists of rapture and pleasure born of concentration, without thought and examination.

When you reflect on these eight thoughts of a great person, then, as much as you wish, with the fading away as well of rapture, you will dwell equanimous and, mindful and clearly comprehending, experience pleasure with the body; you will enter and dwell in the third jhāna of which the noble ones declare: ‘He is equanimous, mindful, one who dwells happily.’

When you reflect on these eight thoughts of a great person, then, as much as you wish, with the abandoning of pleasure and pain, and with the previous passing away of joy and sadness, you will enter and dwell in the fourth jhāna, neither painful nor pleasant, which has purification of mindfulness by equanimity.
If the reflecting on the "eight thoughts of a great person" just came in earlier jhana, then I think we might infer something happening in the initial transition into jhana. Instead I think a more general point is being made. It's the same wording for all four jhana. Are these eight thoughts actually being contemplated within all four jhana? Is that really being necessarily implied by the words of the sutta? Or is the point being made that contemplating (or mentally chanting) this dhamma prepares the mind for later entering all four jhanas?

frank k
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by frank k » Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:01 pm

suaimhneas wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 12:43 pm

If the reflecting on the "eight thoughts of a great person" just came in earlier jhana, then I think we might infer something happening in the initial transition into jhana. Instead I think a more general point is being made. It's the same wording for all four jhana. Are these eight thoughts actually being contemplated within all four jhana? Is that really being necessarily implied by the words of the sutta? Or is the point being made that contemplating (or mentally chanting) this dhamma prepares the mind for later entering all four jhanas?
The word b.bodhi is using for 'reflecting' is vitakka:
mahāpurisavitakke vitakkessasi,
And vitakka drops out in the second jhana formula, dropping out the labels for the audio images of vitakka memorized.
There's a gradual samadhi training here.
First jhana, still retains the unvocalized mental words unspoken.
Second jhana, the labels to the underlying perceptions drop, so vitakka/thought of "may i be happy"
is just the perception/sanna "may i be happy".
As SN 47.10 says, once vitakka and vicara have served their purpose of directing one's mind towards an inspiring samadhi nimitta to induce piti, then one can drop V&V then and directly go into a-vitakka-a-vicara samadhi. (which is 2nd jhana and higher)

I point out AN 8.30 because it explicitly labels quoted unspoken dhamma thoughts as vitakka, and takes it right into first jhana. The same pattern happens frequently in the suttas, mostly with 7sb awakening factors instead of 4 jhanas here.

Look at AN 6.10 for example, they (buddha anus sati, dhamma, sangha, sila...) are not explicitly labeled as vitakka, but they are dhamma vitakka. In that sutta, they're called "anus-sati'. But what does sati recollect? sati recollects Dhamma and then thinks (vitakketi) about it (SN 46.3).

7sb awakening factors and 4 jhanas are equivalent, mapping the same terrain just focusing on a slightly different aspect.
samadhi-sambojjhanga has 4 quality levels, they are the 4 jhanas.
upekkha that appears in 3rd and 4th jhana, are upekkha-sambojjhanga.
upekkha is not just equanimity. upekkha is equanimous-observation. It does vipassana, while in jhana.
upekkha = upa + ikkhati (looking upon).
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frank k
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by frank k » Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:08 pm

frank k wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:01 pm
...
Earlier in the thread when I was pointing out that in the oral tradition, when the Buddha composes dhamma into the form of vitakka to be memorized, for 12ps dependent co arising, you doubted it saying you didn't think he was in jhana. In that sutta, it didn't explicitly say,
but in the first 3 udanas, of KN Ud, describing the night of buddha's enlightenment, while 12 ps is being realized, it describes the buddha as being in jhana:


(verse)
♦ “yadā have pātubhavanti dhammā,
As phenomena grow clear
♦ ātāpino jhāyato brāhmaṇassa.
to the brahman — ardent, in jhāna —
♦ athassa kaṅkhā vapayanti sabbā,
his doubts all vanish
♦ yato pajānāti sa-hetu-dhamman”ti.
when he discerns a phenomenon with its cause.
paṭhamaṃ.
(end of sutta)


There is no access concentration for EBT. EBT jhana contains both samatha and vipassana. As long as the contemplation/vipassana doesn't weaken passadhi, doesn't inhibit sukha, then 4 jhanas and vipassana are happen simultaneously. You can think of it as jhana meditator down shifts into first jhana to engage in vitakka, or you can think of it as an impure 4th jhana with vitakka. Either way, its jhana.

The whole point of 4 jhanas is to define a standard of quality for samadhi as a minimum bar for realizing nirvana. So to think all the numerous sutta passages where disciples are attaining arahantship or stream entry while listening to or thinking about Dhamma, that would just nonsensical to say they are not in jhana.
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suaimhneas
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by suaimhneas » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:11 pm

frank k wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:01 pm
The word b.bodhi is using for 'reflecting' is vitakka:
mahāpurisavitakke vitakkessasi,
Sure, I have very little Pali but could figure that out. And that passage using vitakka "When you reflect on these eight thoughts of a great person" appears right at the start of each the four passages for each of the four jhana (so I guess applies to all of them).
And vitakka drops out in the second jhana formula, dropping out the labels for the audio images of vitakka memorized.
There's a gradual samadhi training here.
First jhana, still retains the unvocalized mental words unspoken.
Second jhana, the labels to the underlying perceptions drop, so vitakka/thought of "may i be happy"
is just the perception/sanna "may i be happy".
The remainder of each of these four passages (after the appearance of that reflecting/vitakka passage) appears to be simply stock jhana descriptions with the usual factors. So the above, I think, is you just rephrasing your own understanding. I don't really see any new evidence of your understandings there.
As SN 47.10 says, once vitakka and vicara have served their purpose of directing one's mind towards an inspiring samadhi nimitta to induce piti, then one can drop V&V then and directly go into a-vitakka-a-vicara samadhi. (which is 2nd jhana and higher)
OK, I think you mean the following passage in SN47.10 (Bhikkhu Bodhi translation):
“What four? Here, Ānanda, a bhikkhu dwells contemplating the body in the body, ardent, clearly comprehending, mindful, having removed covetousness and displeasure in regard to the world. While he is contemplating the body in the body, there arises in him, based on the body, either a fever in the body or sluggishness of mind, or the mind is distracted outwardly. That bhikkhu should then direct his mind towards some inspiring sign. When he directs his mind towards some inspiring sign, gladness is born. When he is gladdened, rapture is born. When the mind is uplifted by rapture, the body becomes tranquil. One tranquil in body experiences happiness. The mind of one who is happy becomes concentrated. He reflects thus: ‘The purpose for the sake of which I directed my mind has been achieved. Let me now withdraw it.’ So he withdraws the mind and does not think or examine. He understands: ‘Without thought and examination, internally mindful, I am happy.’
I find nothing controversial about that. It seems V&V can be directing to mind towards an inspiring samadhi nimitta (doesn't say it has to be mental speech though). This reminds me of your Vism. example; there's nothing explicitly saying mentally chanting a word. The Vism. example started with explicit mental chanting "earth" or whatever but then the mind established itself on a sign. Was not clear if the mental chanting of "earth" continued into first jhana. It's the same here I think.
I point out AN 8.30 because it explicitly labels quoted unspoken dhamma thoughts as vitakka, and takes it right into first jhana.
Right up to, yes. Whether it goes *into* is not so clear I think.
The same pattern happens frequently in the suttas, mostly with 7sb awakening factors instead of 4 jhanas here.
But how literally does one take that line of argument. For example, SN46.38 describes an eager dhamma listener fully developing all 7 enlightenment factors while listening to a dhamma talk.
“When, bhikkhus, a noble disciple listens to the Dhamma with eager ears, attending to it as a matter of vital concern, directing his whole mind to it, on that occasion these five hindrances are not present in him; on that occasion these seven factors of enlightenment go to fulfilment by development.”
So does that mean he goes literally all the way to the fourth jhana when still listening to the talk? I suspect not.
Look at AN 6.10 for example, they (buddha anus sati, dhamma, sangha, sila...) are not explicitly labeled as vitakka, but they are dhamma vitakka. In that sutta, they're called "anus-sati'. But what does sati recollect? sati recollects Dhamma and then thinks (vitakketi) about it (SN 46.3).
Sure, the ten recollections of AN6.10, as expounded to layman Mahānāma, do describe dhamma reflection leading to samadhi (going through the stock sequence of joy, rapture, tranquillity, bliss, and finally samadhi). But again it's not clear how far actually mental unvocalized words carry along in this process. I think it's even unclear if jhana is necessarily even involved. This is a teaching to a layman after all and a method particularly suited to laypeople (some of the laity did have jhana but far from all).
Last edited by suaimhneas on Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

suaimhneas
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by suaimhneas » Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:12 pm

frank k wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 3:08 pm
Earlier in the thread when I was pointing out that in the oral tradition, when the Buddha composes dhamma into the form of vitakka to be memorized, for 12ps dependent co arising, you doubted it saying you didn't think he was in jhana. In that sutta, it didn't explicitly say,
but in the first 3 udanas, of KN Ud, describing the night of buddha's enlightenment, while 12 ps is being realized, it describes the buddha as being in jhana:


(verse)
♦ “yadā have pātubhavanti dhammā,
As phenomena grow clear
♦ ātāpino jhāyato brāhmaṇassa.
to the brahman — ardent, in jhāna —
♦ athassa kaṅkhā vapayanti sabbā,
his doubts all vanish
♦ yato pajānāti sa-hetu-dhamman”ti.
when he discerns a phenomenon with its cause.
paṭhamaṃ.
(end of sutta)


There is no access concentration for EBT. EBT jhana contains both samatha and vipassana. As long as the contemplation/vipassana doesn't weaken passadhi, doesn't inhibit sukha, then 4 jhanas and vipassana are happen simultaneously. You can think of it as jhana meditator down shifts into first jhana to engage in vitakka, or you can think of it as an impure 4th jhana with vitakka. Either way, its jhana.
Apologies for all the nitpicking and the questioning of your pieces of evidence, but I seem to have ended up mostly playing a devil's advocate role here!

I'd have issues regarding your use of the first three verses of the Udana.

You use part of the very final poetic utterance as evidence.
Bhikkhu Anandajoti translates this as (plus the final two more lines):
“When the nature of things becomes really manifest
To the ardent meditating brāhmaṇa,
He dwells dispelling Māra’s army,
As the sun dwells lighting up the firmament.”
By itself, this is perhaps somewhat supportive of your point. However, in contrast, the main body of all of these three suttas takes care to specify that the Buddha came out of jhana to apply his mind to dependent origination.

So, either the final verse is clashing with the content of the suttas themselves or perhaps the poetic utterance should be translated with a vaguer more sweeping and poetic sense of meaning than you do?
Then at that time the Gracious One was sitting in one cross-legged posture for seven days experiencing the happiness of freedom.

Then with the passing of those seven days, the Gracious One, after arising from that concentration, for the last watch of the night, applied his mind thoroughly to conditional origination in forward and reverse order:
The whole point of 4 jhanas is to define a standard of quality for samadhi as a minimum bar for realizing nirvana. So to think all the numerous sutta passages where disciples are attaining arahantship or stream entry while listening to or thinking about Dhamma, that would just nonsensical to say they are not in jhana.
Here you are using a rather contested and somewhat controversial point as evidence. For arahantship, the only sutta that comes to mind as indicative is the Bahiya sutta Ud1.10. Is this perhaps the only piece of evidence?

Certainly, stream-entry (or the breakthrough to Dhamma or the arising of the Dhamma eye) happening during listening to a Dhamma talk is a very common occurrence with numerous examples. I don't think there is any example at all of a disciple going away to meditate (or access jhana) and becoming a stream entrant that way. It's also unclear whether jhana is needed for stream entry.
Bhikkhu Bodhi has an interesting paper discussing this question here. He says there aren't any suttas that definitely say jhana is needed for stream-entry but also there are no suttas that definitely say that it isn't. However, that articles lists several suttas examples that he says are rather indicative that jhana is not necessary for stream-entry.

Perhaps the best argument in favour of the proposition is in the Indriya Samyutta of the SN where the various types of follower are listed and greater strength in the five faculties is assigned to successively higher attainments. Logically speaking one could use that to "prove" that this means a minimum level in each faculty (including the faculty of samadhi) is needed for stream-entry. But how watertight a proposition is that is based just on that argument with just those suttas is another question.

It's a contested point on which the suttas are not terribly clear.

frank k
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Re: if you witness a crime

Post by frank k » Sat Aug 31, 2019 9:26 am

You did not read this did you?
http://lucid24.org/sted/8aam/8samadhi/v ... ndex.html
Between AN 8.30, and the how vitakkas/sankappa drop out and are deliberately excluded for first jhana in MN 19 parallel, MN 78, MN 125, it's very clear we're talking about the V&V of the standard first and second jhana formula. At least read that section where I show B. Analayo's fallacies. B. Sujato deliberately avoids talking about those suttas, only seizing on the pali MN 19 for that reason, to maintain a facade of plausible deniability.

On the other points you bring up, you're not going to understand EBT at all if you treat each sutta individually and maximize the fuzziness of each individually. You have to cummulatively apply pieces of data you learn from individual suttas and apply them to others. You're doing that already to have a coherent understanding of EBT in general, but for some reason V&V gets a special exclusion from you.

Anyway, I await your comment on MN 19, MN 78, MN 125. If you don't understand how that eliminates any perceived fuzziness of V&V, then there's no further point in discussing the matter.

There's a certain amount of merit to you wondering exactly how subverbal vitakka really is and how different from ordinary vitakka in first jhana, and even B. Bodhi does, but he even he realized vitakka and vicara needs to be translated as 'thinking and examination' in first jhana, changing it from his earlier following nanamoli's "applied thought and sustained thought" in MN.


suaimhneas wrote:
Fri Aug 30, 2019 7:11 pm
...
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